# What's wrong with the birthers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269 "2011-02-14T02:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/21 "2011-02-14T04:52:36Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > For the umpteenth time: Obama’s black. That’s the reason. Period. I’d agree with you, but for the fact that the one person I know who is a birther had 2 black foster children, who he was very sad to see go. **Chen019** even if any of those have factual basis, he’s an American for the same reason McCain (and my sister) is: their mother is an American. ETA: My guess, nothing but sour grapes. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/22 "2011-02-14T04:53:31Z")
\*\*Jayjay \*\*and **Diogenes** : this is getting a little meta- The OP is (IMHO) seeking to learn the appropriate way to argue with a truther, not actually to argue with one. We speak to crazy people differently than we speak to liars or to trolls or to racists or to naive dupes or to evil people, don’t we? The problem here is that we are addressing all of those (and more) at once, and it makes for confusing discourse. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/23 "2011-02-14T04:59:55Z")
I also need to add one other possibility, which derives from the nutjobbery Clinton had to deal with: cynical (but level-headed and sane) Republican operatives seeking to bedevil ANY Dem POTUS with absurd factoids and rumors just to get him to spend some of his time in the White House dealing with this stuff. Indeed, I think this is the one constituency I am SURE is operating, but I doubt it accounts for 1% of the birthers. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/24 "2011-02-14T05:01:52Z")
I wasn’t here at the time, but can any of the old timers tell me if the Vince Foster conspiracy every had any currency or advocates on the Dope? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/25 "2011-02-14T05:03:19Z")
I guess \*\*Chen019 \*\*is not aware that the basis of that article was coming from a hoax: [http://mediamatters.org/blog/201101270012](http://mediamatters.org/blog/201101270012) > [@](#): > > On January 20, Mike Evans, a relatively unknown celebrity journalist, claimed on a Twin Cities classic rock station that he had talked to Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie (D) and “Neil says that he searched everywhere using his powers as governor … there is no Barack Obama birth certificate in Hawaii. Absolutely no proof at all that he was born in Hawaii.” > > Evans’ story was a hoax. Six days later, Evans told [FoxNews.com](http://FoxNews.com) that “Neil never told me there was no birth certificate … I never talked to him.”\* > > The retraction wasn’t surprising. There is no evidence President Obama was born outside of the United States, and Abercrombie told the Honolulu Star-Advertiser on January 18 that Hawaii indeed has proof of Obama’s birth. > > As a result of their complete lack of evidence, the “birther” movement has been fueled by purported scoops that have turned out to be completely wrong. And now you know why we are having a recent eruption of birthers. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/26 "2011-02-14T05:12:59Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Palin thinks it’s a legitimate question too. It is a legitimate question. It is legitimate that there doesn’t seem to be a system in place to prevent a non-NBC from running for President. Arizona tried and they were ridiculed as racists. The problem for Birthers is not if the question is legitimate or not. The problem is the answer is Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/27 "2011-02-14T05:13:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I wasn’t here at the time, but can any of the old timers tell me if the Vince Foster conspiracy every had any currency or advocates on the Dope? I doubt if the board ever really dealt with it, since the initial flap about it came in the mid-90s and the SDMB didn’t come into existence until 1999. There MAY have been discussion in alt.fan.cecil-adams. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/28 "2011-02-14T05:16:15Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It is a legitimate question. > It is legitimate that there doesn’t seem to be a system in place to prevent a non-NBC from running for President. Arizona tried and they were ridiculed as racists. > > The problem for Birthers is not if the question is legitimate or not. The problem is the answer is Hawaii. But there IS a system in place…it’s called opposition research. Do you honestly think that if there WERE anything about ANY presidential candidate to find out, that their primary and presidential campaign opponents wouldn’t find it? That’s actually the A-number-one reason I have no doubts whatsoever about Obama’s American birth…do you honestly think that, first, Hillary wouldn’t have found out something that lethal, and, second, McCain/the Republicans? A presidential campaign is like the most savage form of peer review. ANYTHING that could end an opponent’s campaign will be found. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/29 "2011-02-14T05:22:52Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It is a legitimate question. > It is legitimate that there doesn’t seem to be a system in place to prevent a non-NBC from running for President. Sure there is. All you have to do is ask for a copy of the Birth Certificate. Obama did so. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/30 "2011-02-14T05:23:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think it may be sublimated eevn to themselves. They know they don’t like and distrust Obama - they see him as "other - but they don’t want to admit to themselves that their discomfort is race based, so they come up with these surrogate projections instead. > > I also think there are probably some who are intelligent enough to know it’s bullshit, but aren’t above cynically exploiting it if they think it will help their political side (I would put the Hannitys and Becks of the world in that category). I think it is even more basic than that. Whether or not birthers truly believe Obama is not a natural born citizen of the United States is not the issue. They must continue to pursue their cause to whatever conclusion is realized. Failing to follow through, or accepting presented facts as irrefutable, would be an admission that Obama, a black man, is the legitimate president of the United States, and that simply is not acceptable in their America. ---
**Author:** ![TravisFromOR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cc9497/32.png) [@TravisFromOR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisFromOR)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/31 "2011-02-14T05:25:43Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > The problem for Birthers is not if the question is legitimate or not. The problem is the answer is Hawaii. It’s not like Hawaii is a real state anyway. It doesn’t even touch any of the other states. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/32 "2011-02-14T05:28:56Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > Every few months on this board, usually after some crackpot riles up members, a number of new threads are created asking “why, oh why do birthers continue to pursue their agenda?” I am confident this won’t be the last. I am, however, flummoxed why the question keeps being asked on a board populated by those who skew more intelligent than the average bear. Because a great many people don’t want to face just how heavily infested with racists the American Right is. They want to believe that it’s just a teeny tiny minority that’s racist, and not millions of people. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/33 "2011-02-14T05:35:22Z")
A lot of them will counter with black politicos they like (Alan Keyes, maybe Michael Steele), but I think that falls into a sort of “good Indian/bad Indian” dynamic. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/34 "2011-02-14T05:42:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > A lot of them will counter with black politicos they like (Alan Keyes, maybe Michael Steele), but I think that falls into a sort of “good Indian/bad Indian” dynamic. Oh, they’re okay with house boys like Steele, and especially Keyes, who serve a specific purpose not unlike any other piece of property or equipment, and who they believe can be easily controlled, are non-threatening to whites, and who are borderline competent. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/35 "2011-02-14T05:47:42Z")
I occasionally cross paths with a man who is rabid on four counts. 1. Obama is NOT a native born American 2. Obama IS a Muslim 3. Obama is Black (I won’t use his complete description of Obama) 4. As one of his last acts in office, Obama will “surrender” to “Africa” and will give “Africa” every cent America has left. There is no way to talk to the man on any of these subjects; he is right and the rest of the world is just too stupid to see it. I think, to him, it is all crystal clear; he believes those things as some people believe the Bible. The thing is, he is in many ways a good man; he simply has these blind spots and I don’t why. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/36 "2011-02-14T05:59:04Z")
> [@TravisFromOR](#): > > It’s not like Hawaii is a real state anyway. It doesn’t even touch any of the other states. That’s because it’s seen what some of those other states do in the men’s room. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/37 "2011-02-14T06:12:21Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It is a legitimate question. > It is legitimate that there doesn’t seem to be a system in place to prevent a non-NBC from running for President. Arizona tried and they were ridiculed as racists. > > The problem for Birthers is not if the question is legitimate or not. The problem is the answer is Hawaii. There are several systems in place. In order to be placed on the ballot, candidates must satisfy the secretaries of state (or equivalents) for each state that they are eligible for office. Obama did so by producing his birth certificate, and thereby satisfying everyone who matters. There’s a year for opposition campaigns to investigate candidates. Finally, Congress must certify the election results. > [@LouisB](#): > > I occasionally cross paths with a man who is rabid on four counts. > > 1. Obama is NOT a native born American > 2. Obama IS a Muslim > 3. Obama is Black (I won’t use his complete description of Obama) > 4. As one of his last acts in office, Obama will “surrender” to “Africa” and will give “Africa” every cent America has left. Presumably he’ll be voting for Obama come 2012 so we can keep America’s money for another four years, then. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/38 "2011-02-14T06:17:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I wasn’t here at the time, but can any of the old timers tell me if the Vince Foster conspiracy every had any currency or advocates on the Dope? Back on AOL, we had a few utter nuts that would bring up Vince Foster. There was also another long list of supposedly “suspicious deaths” that were supposed to be linked to Clinton. Then, as now, it was a tiny handful of fruitloops occasionally supported in the “questions” by an occasional poster of whom one would have expected more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/39 "2011-02-14T06:23:24Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I occasionally cross paths with a man who is rabid on four counts. > > 1. Obama is NOT a native born American > 2. Obama IS a Muslim > 3. Obama is Black (I won’t use his complete description of Obama) > 4. As one of his last acts in office, Obama will “surrender” to “Africa” and will give “Africa” every cent America has left. > > There is no way to talk to the man on any of these subjects; he is right and the rest of the world is just too stupid to see it. I think, to him, it is all crystal clear; he believes those things as some people believe the Bible. > > The thing is, he is in many ways a good man; he simply has these blind spots and I don’t why. I had a bother-in-law (Now deceased) who was like this. In many ways he was an admirable person. A Vietnam Vet, a generous and kind person to friends and family, yet an inveterate and inexplicable racist (the kind whom who said the N-word, downloaded Johnny Rebel songs and called the KKK “my people,” so I’m not just projecting here. I never understood his racism. He wasn’t completely evil. He wasn’t a sociopath. He wasn’t stupid and he had a black niece (adopted by one of his sisters) who he was nothing but kind and affectionate to. I actually sort of liked the guy. He wasn’t an an asshole, for the most part. He was a right winger and gun nut and he took me shooting a lot and taught me some stuff about how fo handle a gun (I was in the Navy, but my firearms training was confined to one day of Basic Training with an M16. We nuke shit in the Navy. We don’t need guns). I went to one or two gun shows with him and liked staying up late and drinking wth him, but his racism was this weird quirk that I never understood. He lived in rural North Dakota where there were no black people. When I probed him on it, he would fall back on the old “there’s black people and there’s niggers” thing, but that was bullshit. One time, when he was drunk, he told me . “I’m just a redneck. don’t take me too seriously.” In retrospect, I think he just liked the shock value of saying “nigger” more than anything else. He wsn’t an evil person. He was affable, compassionate and kind, butthis stupis “nigger nigger nigger” stuff would come out of him after a few drinks. I never understiidit and still don;yt. His sisters (one of whom I’m married to) have none of that. My wife doesn’t know whee it came from either (even though her parents say some low level racist things themselves). ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/40 "2011-02-14T08:57:30Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I occasionally cross paths with a man who is rabid on four counts. > > 1. Obama is NOT a native born American > 2. Obama IS a Muslim > 3. Obama is Black (I won’t use his complete description of Obama) > 4. As one of his last acts in office, Obama will “surrender” to “Africa” and will give “Africa” every cent America has left. > > There is no way to talk to the man on any of these subjects; he is right and the rest of the world is just too stupid to see it. I think, to him, it is all crystal clear; he believes those things as some people believe the Bible. > > The thing is, he is in many ways a good man; he simply has these blind spots and I don’t why. It’s because he’s a racist SOB. He’s already showed you that with #3. And, for a great many people I’ve encountered, Muslims are just like a race (I’ve actually heard these people refer to Turkish Muslims as “Sand N~”), a race those people can’t stand anymore than they can stand Blacks, especially successfull blacks. In short: the person you describe is a loser. My theory about all of the WONJCTs of any stripe is that they’re (a) racist, (b) xenophobic, (c) anti-Semitic, or (d) any combination of (a), (b), and (c). And as such, they are not only ignorant SOBs, but proudly ignorant SOBs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269.md?page=3)