# What's wrong with the birthers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269 "2011-02-14T02:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/81 "2011-02-14T21:17:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What is that evidence, again? The fact that similar birth certificates and/or similar birth situations for white candidates are not held up to the same skepticism and scrutiny. The fact that in spite of documented evidence to the contrary, the birthers go on and on not only about the birth certificate but about the fact that it shows that he was not only not born in America, he was born in an AFRICAN country. The fact that I myself have heard racist statements from people I know when they discuss their skepticism regarding his citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/82 "2011-02-14T21:28:25Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > To be blunt, that’s about as racist a statement as anything the right comes up with. This x100000. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/83 "2011-02-14T21:58:46Z")
You have to understand, these folks think “we” (aka whites) are “losing the country.” To blacks, latinos, Indians, corporations selling off their jobs…whatever. Why they want to keep a country of parking lots, bland food, and really crappy decor I haven’t a clue, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/84 "2011-02-14T22:13:28Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > It is a legitimate question. > It is legitimate that there doesn’t seem to be a system in place to prevent a non-NBC from running for President. There are two levels of review between the popular vote and the selection of the President – the electors who cast the votes that actually count and the Congress that certifies the result. It’s their job to throw out votes for a candidate who is legally unqualified to be President. They did not do so in this case, presumably because there is, in fact, no credible evidence that Barack Obama is legally unqualified. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/85 "2011-02-14T22:22:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t agree. > > And the reason is: tax protesters. > > Your theory seems to be that the only possible reason this much cognitive dissonance could happen, this much ardent refusal to be swayed by fact could exist is in service of racism. > > And I say that tax protesters have the precise same sort of dogged blindness, the exact same cultivated single-mindedness for their point of view and refusal to be swayed by the sternest, most cogent logic an opponent might bring to bear. > > I am certain that tax protesters are not motivated by racism. > > So why must it be that birthers are racist? Why can’t birthers be driven by the same irrational force that compels tax protesters to claim that because a court’s American flag has a gold fringe, it’s somehow lost the power to adjudicate tax offenses. Conspiracy theorists have certain motivations in common (most obviously, the desire to be among the elect who possess Sekrit Nolege). There are also motivations that vary on a case-by-case basis. In the case of tax protesters; it’s preference for keeping money instead of handing it over to the gummint; for birthers, it’s objection to a “not-real-Amerikin” President (which I concede is only partially motivated by race, and also partially motivated by political ideology). ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/86 "2011-02-14T22:35:23Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > It has been mentioned before in other threads but, it says “Certificate of Live Birth” because it is not your actual birth certificate. The doubters seem unable to wrap their brains around these two points: [ol] > [li]Your actual birth certificate is kept on file, most likely in the county you were born. [\*]When you request a copy they send you a certified copy of the birth certificate, not the actual document filled out by the doctor when you were born.[/li][/ol] NOBODY that I am aware of has their actual, original birth certificate, they only have certified copies. > > As an example - [here](http://www.safeguardourconstitution.com/news/reagans-birth-certificate.html) is a link to a website that appears to be birther claiming to show Ronald Reagan’s birth certificate. However, notice at the top of the document it says “Certification of Vital Record” and in the lower left corner it says “Date Issued, June 20, 1991”. Clearly this is not the actual birth certificate, or “long form birth certificate”. It is a certified copy of the actual document. There may be more detail on it since it shows handwritten information, but it is just as “fake” as the Certificate of Live Birth issued by the State of Hawaii for Obama. Of course good luck getting a birther to ever concede that point. Well wait a second: Regarding the certificate from PA: I did at one time have an original Birth Certificate document, complete with my baby footprints. It was in my possession. But I lost it years ago. It can’t be on file in Pennsylvania because I had it in my hand. But it no longer exists. Regarding the certificate from CA for my son: The document that was signed by the doctor (I was there when he did it) looks identical to the one I have now called “Certificate of Live Birth”, except that the county added its official seal. The doctor’s signature is still on it. There is no certificate with baby footprints, California doesn’t do that anymore. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/87 "2011-02-14T22:47:17Z")
Is this a trick question? Intellectual laziness, willful ignorance, just plain stupid? Probably a combination of all three. I used to listen to Rush on occasion, mainly for his political insight and sometimes out of shear boredom while driving out in corn country. Is he really casting doubt on Obama’s birthplace or is that typical lefty exaggeration? If he has/is then I’m done with him. Any cites available? ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/88 "2011-02-14T23:12:34Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Well wait a second: > > Regarding the certificate from PA: I did at one time have an original Birth Certificate document, complete with my baby footprints. It was in my possession. But I lost it years ago. It can’t be on file in Pennsylvania because I had it in my hand. But it no longer exists. > > Regarding the certificate from CA for my son: The document that was signed by the doctor (I was there when he did it) looks identical to the one I have now called “Certificate of Live Birth”, except that the county added its official seal. The doctor’s signature is still on it. There is no certificate with baby footprints, California doesn’t do that anymore. I don’t doubt you are telling the truth about the documents in your possession currently or in the past. However, the county most assuredly kept something on file to document the birth. It would most likely be an exact duplicate of the document(s) you have had in your possession. The one held by the county would be considered the “original” document for official purposes if you follow me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/89 "2011-02-15T01:11:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Not at all. The founder admitted to having given money to Republicans prior to the '08 campaign and their website now is pretty much a love letter to Sarah Palin. I could never find a single liberal policy issue being touted by any of them. It was a Republican front group. You didn’t actually think they were real, did you? Nope. just racist, teabagger conservatives pretending to be disgruntled Hillary supporters. Nope. From the link above: > [@](#): > > Investigations for my new book, Wingnuts, revealed that the Birther conspiracy theory was first concocted by renegade members of the original Obama haters, Party Unity My Ass, known more commonly by their acronym, the PUMAs. They were a splinter group of hard-core Hillary Clinton supporters… Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/90 "2011-02-15T01:39:39Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > To be blunt, that’s about as racist a statement as anything the right comes up with. How so? What race does it disparage? ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/91 "2011-02-15T01:41:50Z")
“…or that they actually don’t believe a word of it, they’re just trolling IRL to get the libs worked up defending what everyone really knows to be true,…” This. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/92 "2011-02-15T01:41:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Actually, I was rebutting the implied argument that “It must be racism, because no other motivation makes sense.” > > Since they are different obsessions with different motivations – which I grant – it then falls to the person arguing FOR racism to provide the evidence. that it’s racism. > > What is that evidence, again? The fact that no other explanation makes sense, and the fact that quite a few of them don’t bother to even censor themselves, especially online. Read Free Republic sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/93 "2011-02-15T01:49:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Nope. From the link above: > Emphasis added. Hillary supporters, my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/94 "2011-02-15T02:21:09Z")
A compelling argument. I’ll admit that I was mistaken in remembering the involvement in the campaign itself in the “birther” effort, but I’m not mistaken in remembering a lot of seriously disgruntled Hillary supporters, all women, who were mightily pissed off at Obama for spoiling their chances of getting a woman into the White House. I know this because some of my own family members were like that, although none were so incensed as to vote Republican. They were mad, but they weren’t _crazy_. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/95 "2011-02-15T02:28:29Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > A compelling argument. > > I’ll admit that I was mistaken in remembering the involvement in the campaign itself in the “birther” effort, but I’m not mistaken in remembering a lot of seriously disgruntled Hillary supporters, all women… One of the major PUMA ringleaders… PUMA was a small group, after all… was a guy. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/96 "2011-02-15T03:11:20Z")
I don’t believe _all_ the Birthers are doing it out of racism. Many are, no doubt. But there are some very stupid people out there, and I have no trouble believing a bunch of the clods I have personally known in the past would today truly buy into the whole “Certificate of Live Birth does not equal Birth Certificate” shtick. They’re just gullible and not very bright, and this would be no worse than some of their other beliefs I’ve heard. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/97 "2011-02-15T03:18:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The fact that no other explanation makes sense, and the fact that quite a few of them don’t bother to even censor themselves, especially online. Read Free Republic sometime. So it’s as I said, and you dismissed: the argument is that no other explanation makes sense. But I have already proved that there must be at least one other explanation that makes sense, becaue tax protesters are also divorced from reality and their motive isn’t racism. And if vitriolic comments left on a website are evidence of a group’s motives, then liberals are just as if not more racist, judging from the hate-filled comments left on Michelle Malkin’s website. But of course we know that’s not true – the race-baiting hate comments on Malkin’s site do NOT reflect all or even most liberals. And racist comments left at Free Repblic do NOT reflect all or even most birthers. Birthers define themselves by their belief in an idiotic theory. That doesn’t make them racist. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/98 "2011-02-15T03:38:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So it’s as I said, and you dismissed: the argument is that no other explanation makes sense. > > But I have already proved that there must be at least one other explanation that makes sense, becaue tax protesters are also divorced from reality and their motive isn’t racism. You’ve proved nothing. You made a statement the veracity and, more importantly, proof for which was not provided, to wit: > [@Bricker](#): > > I am certain that tax protesters are not motivated by racism. You’re certain? How so? To which tax protesters are you referring? > [@Bricker](#): > > So why must it be that birthers are racist? Why can’t birthers be driven by the same irrational force that compels tax protesters to claim that because a court’s American flag has a gold fringe, it’s somehow lost the power to adjudicate tax offenses. This doesn’t follow. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/99 "2011-02-15T12:37:37Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Hillary supporters, my ass. Like I said. Truther-birther conspiracy. Thanks for confirming my earlier observation. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/100 "2011-02-15T12:44:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > One of the major PUMA ringleaders… PUMA was a small group, after all… was a guy. I was referring to people I specifically knew. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269.md?page=6)