# What's wrong with the birthers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269 "2011-02-14T02:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/121 "2011-02-15T20:55:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Question: Is that claim being made by a majority in this thread? You yourself are one the people making it. If your question now is intended to deny that it’s a significant claim because only a minority of posters are making it… you appear to be saying, in effect, “Don’t listen to me; I’m just a member of a minority of posters making an untenable point.” Since I cannot imagine you mean to say that… why do you care about whehter it’s a minority or a majority? A quick count reveals: Ontomonopeia Diogenes Kolga Czarcasm As claiming that racism is the only motive. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/122 "2011-02-15T20:59:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You yourself are one the people making it. I am? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/123 "2011-02-15T21:02:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I am? Um… it sure seemed like you were: > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You know, and I know and the American people know that this birth certificate thing would never be an issue for white President. > [@Saint cad](#): > > So my claim that had McCain won, there would be Dem birthers on the board was immediately met with two posts objecting to the hypothetical but this statement gets no reaction. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > His statement deals with reality, while yours deals with fantasy. What did you mean, if not to say that **Diogenes** conclusion is reality? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/124 "2011-02-15T21:18:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Claim: racism is the only possible motivation that could cause people to be so irrational about the subject. > > Rebuttal: no, because tax protesters are also irrational and their motive clearly is not racism. This doesn’t make any sense to me … unless I’m reading it wrong. The proof that birthers’ irrationality isn’t race based is because tax protesters’ irraionality isn’t race based? You could just as well have said the moon-hoaxers irrationality isn’t race based therefore it’s imposible that birthers have any racial agenda. No sense does it make. Tell me I’m reading you wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/125 "2011-02-15T21:24:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What did you mean, if not to say that **Diogenes** conclusion is reality? 1. I meant that **Dio** was talking about a real situation, while **Saint cad** was attempting to introduce a fantasy “what-if” situation into the conversation. Nowhere did I say(or even imply) that **Dio’s** conclusion was reality. 2. Even if your erroneous conclusion were correct, it wouldn’t mean that I thought that the President being black were the _only_ reason for the “Birther” protest. ---
**Author:** ![JimNightshade](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jimnightshade/32/3354_2.png) [@JimNightshade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimNightshade)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/126 "2011-02-15T21:26:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > _sigh_ > > Claim: racism is the only possible motivation that could cause people to be so irrational about the subject. I could be wrong, but isn’t the claim: racism is the only possible motivation that could cause people to be so irrational about the subject of Obama ? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/127 "2011-02-15T21:45:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So it’s as I said, and you dismissed: the argument is that no other explanation makes sense. > > But I have already proved that there must be at least one other explanation that makes sense, becaue tax protesters are also divorced from reality and their motive isn’t racism. Tax protesters aren’t motivated by racism? Really? I suggest that many of them are strongly motivated by racism. You don’t need to dig very far into tax-protestor arguments before you encounter the mythic negress welfare queen, or illegal immigrants getting “our tax dollars”. A billion-dollar B2 bomber is fine, but Christ forbid that a poor brown person gets an elementary school education or antibiotics on white America’s dime. And then consider that the teabaggers were silent… nay, nonexistent, for the eight years that George W. Bush blowing money like a fucking drunken sailor on military boondoggles and all sorts of pork… Seriously, there is probably a small minority of tax protestors who aren’t primarily motivated by race, but I think it’s obvious that most of them don’t really give a shit what happens with their taxes as long as it goes to white people. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/128 "2011-02-15T21:51:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Um.. yes. The statement is self-0evidently true, since taxes are not a race issue. They are race-neutral. There is no racial component to the collecting or owing of taxes. Tax protesters and racist groups haven’t been completely separate, though. A few racist scumbags like [Tom Metzger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Metzger) first made their name in tax protest groups, and a lot of them claim that taxes _are_ a race issue. Metzger himself stated that when he was a tax protester he stated that most of his fellow protesters were “atheist racists, Christian Identity racists, neo-Nazis, all kinds of people.” So if you want to say that birthers are as race-neutral as tax protesters, well, have at it. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/129 "2011-02-15T22:18:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > His statement deals with reality, while yours deals with fantasy. So my hypothetical is fantasy but his hypothetical is reality? Please explain how you know AS A FACT that there would be no birther issue if Obama were white AND how you know AS A FACT that no Democrat on this board would raise McCain being born in the Canal Zone as a issue had he won. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/130 "2011-02-15T22:25:11Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > This doesn’t make any sense to me … unless I’m reading it wrong. > > The proof that birthers’ irrationality isn’t race based is because tax protesters’ irraionality isn’t race based? You could just as well have said the moon-hoaxers irrationality isn’t race based therefore it’s imposible that birthers have any racial agenda. No sense does it make. > > Tell me I’m reading you wrong. You are. AGAIN: The claim is: Birthers’ irrationality must be race-based, because no other explanation makes sense. How might I refute that? One way would be to show another motive for irrationality, so that we see that irrationality can exist for non-race reasons. Now, if the claim is, “Birthers’ irrationality is race-based, and we know this because of Reason X,” then my argument is useless. My argument is only valid to reject the “no other motive could have this effect” claim. If the other side concedes that irrationality like this can arise from many different motives, then my argument doesn’t apply at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/131 "2011-02-15T22:27:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. I meant that **Dio** was talking about a real situation, while **Saint cad** was attempting to introduce a fantasy “what-if” situation into the conversation. Nowhere did I say(or even imply) that **Dio’s** conclusion was reality. My mistake, then. > [@](#): > > 1. Even if your erroneous conclusion were correct, it wouldn’t mean that I thought that the President being black were the _only_ reason for the “Birther” protest. Since that’s what Diogenes is saying, it seemed yours was a general statement in support of his argument. Again, my mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/132 "2011-02-15T22:32:30Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Tax protesters and racist groups haven’t been completely separate, though. A few racist scumbags like [Tom Metzger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Metzger) first made their name in tax protest groups, and a lot of them claim that taxes _are_ a race issue. Metzger himself stated that when he was a tax protester he stated that most of his fellow protesters were “atheist racists, Christian Identity racists, neo-Nazis, all kinds of people.” > > So if you want to say that birthers are as race-neutral as tax protesters, well, have at it. 1. Nothing in your cite suggests that Metzer is a tax protester because he’s a racist, or a racist because he’s a tax protester. 2. Nothing in your cite addresses the prevalence of racism amongst tax protesters or the prevalence of tax protesters amongst racists. So other than concluding there is at least one, and very likely more than one, tax protester/racist, what can we conclude? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/133 "2011-02-15T22:57:34Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > Tax protesters aren’t motivated by racism? Really? I suggest that many of them are strongly motivated by racism. You don’t need to dig very far into tax-protestor arguments before you encounter the mythic negress welfare queen, or illegal immigrants getting “our tax dollars”. A billion-dollar B2 bomber is fine, but Christ forbid that a poor brown person gets an elementary school education or antibiotics on white America’s dime. And then consider that the teabaggers were silent… nay, nonexistent, for the eight years that George W. Bush blowing money like a fucking drunken sailor on military boondoggles and all sorts of pork… > > Seriously, there is probably a small minority of tax protestors who aren’t primarily motivated by race, but I think it’s obvious that most of them don’t really give a shit what happens with their taxes as long as it goes to white people. A few, perhaps, but I’ve seen many who are furious at the “$600 screwdrivers” that the military uses. The “The Global Sovereign’s Handbook,” to take one example, makes these kinds of cases. So I completely disagree that anywhere near a majority of tax protesters “don’t really give a shit what happens with their taxes as long as it goes to white people.” Have you a cite for your claim? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/134 "2011-02-15T22:58:28Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > So my hypothetical is fantasy but his hypothetical is reality? Please explain how you know AS A FACT that there would be no birther issue if Obama were white AND how you know AS A FACT that no Democrat on this board would raise McCain being born in the Canal Zone as a issue had he won. Well, if you’re not comfortable with a characterization of “fantasy,” it’s difficult to deny that it is rooted in supposition, and untestable supposition at that. However, if you’d like to give your supposition at least a somewhat tenable backing in reality, you could post a couple of polls in IMHO. You could try something along the lines of “Obama Voters: What were your top three reasons for not voting for MaCain in 2008?” and “McCain Voters: what were your top three reasons for not voting for Obama in 2008?” Admittedly, this approach has some problems, not the least of which involve self-selection of the participants. If you’ve got a couple of extra bucks left over after your income tax return check shows up, you could maybe commission Gallup to do it. My sense is that the McCain voters would have “birth-eligibility questions” a LOT more often than Obama voters would. Beyond that, when dealing with issues of “coulda-shoulda-woulda,” challenging people to demonstrate knowing anything “AS A FACT” strikes me as kinda vapid. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/135 "2011-02-15T23:02:52Z")
> [@Saint Cad](#): > > So my claim that had McCain won, there would be Dem birthers on the board was immediately met with two posts objecting to the hypothetical but this statement gets no reaction. The McCain thing was brought up by Ron Paul supporters early in the '08 campaign and the argument was thoroughly ridiculed by the liberals on this board. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/136 "2011-02-15T23:05:58Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Um… it sure seemed like you were: > > What did you mean, if not to say that **Diogenes** conclusion is reality? It IS reality, not a hypothetical. We saw how liberals reacted to the McCain birther claims. We tore it to shreds. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/137 "2011-02-15T23:25:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Conspiracy Theories rarely make sense and the reasons people hold to them rarely make sense outside the arena of psychological pathology. Claiming that the issue must be racism because only racism explains it fails on the fact that while many Birthers are racist, many are not–so how are the non-racist Birthers being sucked into the vortex? Claiming that any particular explanation is needed beyond that of the typical mindset of CT adherents fails on a lack of support; CT adherents don’t need reasons. I agree completely. In fact, I said (as the 3rd post, we should have shut it down then ;)): > [@](#): > > I think it’s just one more flavor of conspiracy theory nuttiness, and it satisfies the same tribal, “we have the evil world figured out” paranoiac needs that all conspiracy theories do. Nothing new here. There is some fundamental misunderstanding in this thread of the pathology that creates conspiracy theorists. There may be many birthers who are racist (though I’m sure there are many who are not). But they aren’t birthers because they’re racist. They’re birthers because conspiracy theories, for them, satisfy a pathological need, a need to answer certain questions, to blame an elite class, to belong to a tribe, to explain their powerlessness, etc. There are a number of psychological theories (some think projection is involved; some psychologists believe that those who believe in a conspiracy theory will tend to believe in many; etc.). The people in this thread looking for some sort of logical syllogism that demonstrates that birthers must be motivated by racism are completely missing the point. Simply put, conspiracy theorists are people who find conspiracy theories compelling and satisfying. Period. They are a particular type of nut. Racism is not at all a requirement (though, again, it may well be present). I also fully expect that this will be ignored, and the pointless debate will continue. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/138 "2011-02-15T23:39:06Z")
Hey **Dio** , as long as you’re here, let me just say that the whole “PUMAs [del]are[/del] were Pubbie plants” thing has a whiff of “false flag attacks” to its flavor that, imho tends to jeopardize the proponent’s appearance of deserving to be taken seriously. And by extrapolation the likelihood that the proponent _will_ be taken seriously. Particularly when the assertion is forwarded without any corroborating argument. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2011, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/139 "2011-02-15T23:46:19Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > There are several systems in place. In order to be placed on the ballot, candidates must satisfy the secretaries of state (or equivalents) for each state that they are eligible for office. Obama did so by producing his birth certificate, and thereby satisfying everyone who matters. > > There’s a year for opposition campaigns to investigate candidates. > > Finally, Congress must certify the election results. > > \*\*Presumably he’ll be voting for Obama come 2012 so we can keep America’s money for another four years, then. :\*\*D Bolding mine: He just might; he has hinted that he will vote for any viable candidate other than Sarah Palin; if she is the GOP candidate, he MIGHT vote for a Democrat. He isn’t completely crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/140 "2011-02-16T00:13:14Z")
Yeesh. Look at what just showed up on NPR today: [Half Of GOP Primary Voters Wrongly Say Obama Non-U.S. Born: Poll.](http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2011/02/15/133782676/obama-not-u-s-born-say-51-of-gop-primary-voters-poll) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269.md?page=8)