# What's wrong with the birthers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269 "2011-02-14T02:23:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/141 "2011-02-16T00:52:35Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > Yeesh. Look at what just showed up on NPR today: > > [Half Of GOP Primary Voters Wrongly Say Obama Non-U.S. Born: Poll.](http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2011/02/15/133782676/obama-not-u-s-born-say-51-of-gop-primary-voters-poll) To put it into perspective, don’t 50% of Americans think New Mexico is outside the US? And I guaranty more than 50% think Puerto Rico is a foreign country. And besides, Obama was born outside the U.S. He was born in the Kingdom of Hawaii [according to Congress](http://www.lexinformatica.org/index.php/term/,9da4ab975b545ba0a7585c635e9f98979fa4a3a3af5b64659e5f565c6064a554a094aba5b06460a85b.xhtml). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/142 "2011-02-16T01:00:58Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > To put it into perspective, don’t 50% of Americans think New Mexico is outside the US? And I guaranty more than 50% think Puerto Rico is a foreign country. > > And besides, Obama was born outside the U.S. He was born in the Kingdom of Hawaii [according to Congress](http://www.lexinformatica.org/index.php/term/,9da4ab975b545ba0a7585c635e9f98979fa4a3a3af5b64659e5f565c6064a554a094aba5b06460a85b.xhtml). Re: Your three sentences Cite? Cite? Pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/143 "2011-02-16T01:15:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So I completely disagree that anywhere near a majority of tax protesters “don’t really give a shit what happens with their taxes as long as it goes to white people.” After years of Reagan’s deficit spending, Bush Sr’s tax increases, and 8 years of Bush Jr. ladling out pork to everyone imaginable except the poor, tax protesters were nearly unknown. After all these years of virtual obscurity. Suddenly they explode into a nationally visible movement around the time Obama is inaugurated, enraged at the “socialism” and “redistribution”. What do you suppose is the reason for these years of reticence ending around the time that (supposedly) a black President wants to use tax money to help the poor (nonwhite) people? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/144 "2011-02-16T01:46:05Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > And besides, Obama was born outside the U.S. He was born in the Kingdom of Hawaii [according to Congress](http://www.lexinformatica.org/index.php/term/,9da4ab975b545ba0a7585c635e9f98979fa4a3a3af5b64659e5f565c6064a554a094aba5b06460a85b.xhtml). Are you saying that Obama was born in 1893? No _wonder_ he won’t release his birth certificate! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/145 "2011-02-16T01:54:31Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Are you saying that Obama was born in 1893? No _wonder_ he won’t release his birth certificate! So, McCain is only 30 years older than Obama after all! ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/146 "2011-02-16T01:59:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You know, and I know and the American people know that this birth certificate thing would never be an issue for white President. The last time this argument started in some thread a few months ago I got to thinking about this and came to the conclusion you might want to reconsider the idea this would _never_ be an issue for a white candidate. Now, before you jump on me please hear me out. I am in complete agreement with the idea race is a primary motivation for many of the birthers out there, I just don’t think it is the _only_ reason. While reading the previous argument about this it occurred to me that today, for many people in the U.S., Muslims are the boogey man in a way Russians or communists were during the Cold War. As I thought about that the following “what if” scenario occurred to me: In the early 1960’s Stanley Ann Dunham meets and marries a Russian exchange student named Boris Ostrovsky. They have a baby boy and name him Boris Ostrovsky II. They divorce and some time later she marries again, this time to a guy from China. They end up living in China for a few years and enroll little Boris in school for a few years before they also divorce and Ann and little Boris move back to the States. If this were the situation I honestly think most of the same people would be outraged about him being elected President. We are talking about people who are very much afraid of people and things that are different; their fears are not limited to race. I realize the above may seem silly to some of you but I’m using it to illustrate a point, namely that the people who buy into this birther crap would likely have been just as vicious and hateful toward any Democrat who won in 2008. Look at how Clinton was endlessly investigated throughout his presidency; think about the Swift-boating of John Kerry and the nasty, snide comments about Hillary. If Hillary had been elected I feel certain there would have been some controversy manufactured to keep the looney fringe types occupied. The fact Barak Obama is of African heritage has undoubtedly upset some people. I just don’t think it can be stated with absolute certainty it is the only thing motivating the birthers. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/147 "2011-02-16T02:00:27Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > and it satisfies the same tribal, “we have the evil world figured out” paranoiac needs that all conspiracy theories do. No, it doesn’t. A truther is not necessarily a birther. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/148 "2011-02-16T02:12:26Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > \*\*Jayjay \*\*and **Diogenes** : this is getting a little meta- > > The OP is (IMHO) seeking to learn the appropriate way to argue with a truther, not actually to argue with one. We speak to crazy people differently than we speak to liars or to trolls or to racists or to naive dupes or to evil people, don’t we? The problem here is that we are addressing all of those (and more) at once, and it makes for confusing discourse. This. I am not a birther. I may not know what I am. (I was a philosophy major in college after all.) I do know what I’m not. I hate that guy. Birthers. So I **destoyed** their argument using “Birther logic”. Which brings me to the question, however badly framed: What is the appropriate way for a birther to argue with a Doper? Assuming no Doper is a birther. Or, how can you get bither to get the argument to the point where there is _reductio ad absurdum_ and the birther (if he isn’t too stupid) must admit that the Doper is right? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/149 "2011-02-16T11:50:57Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Um, yes it does. Why is this a different breed of conspiracy theorist? > [@](#): > > A truther is not necessarily a birther. Yep. And neither is one necessarily a “moon landing hoaxer” either. Not getting your point. There’s scads of conspiracy theories. So? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/150 "2011-02-16T13:51:49Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > After years of Reagan’s deficit spending, Bush Sr’s tax increases, and 8 years of Bush Jr. ladling out pork to everyone imaginable except the poor, tax protesters were nearly unknown. After all these years of virtual obscurity. Suddenly they explode into a nationally visible movement around the time Obama is inaugurated, enraged at the “socialism” and “redistribution”. What the hell are you talking about? You must see only what you want to see, because no rational, unbiased observer could reach the conclusion that tax protesters were “virtually unknown” prior to Obama inauguration. From this very board, which should not be a welcome haven to irrationality: [Here’s a thread from 2003](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=174270) that discusses tax protesters. [Another one.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=217492) An [Ask the girl who deals with tax protesters everyday!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=425925) thread from 2007. [From 2006.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=394985) [Another 2003 thread examining whether paying taxes is actually voluntary.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=180797) [Here’s a 2007 thread about the Ed Brown raid](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=424623) in Virginia. Paying [income tax is illegal](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=259407), from 2004. I could add ten more examples easily. > [@](#): > > What do you suppose is the reason for these years of reticence ending around the time that (supposedly) a black President wants to use tax money to help the poor (nonwhite) people? Hypothesis contrary to fact. Those idiots have LONG been around, with a motive that has NOTHING to do with race. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/151 "2011-02-16T14:20:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > 1. Nothing in your cite suggests that Metzer is a tax protester because he’s a racist, or a racist because he’s a tax protester. > > 2. Nothing in your cite addresses the prevalence of racism amongst tax protesters or the prevalence of tax protesters amongst racists. > > So other than concluding there is at least one, and very likely more than one, tax protester/racist, what can we conclude? I wasn’t arguing that all tax protesters were racist, or even that the majority of them were, just that the tax-protest movement was not entirely racist-neutral, as you had implied in your earlier post. I find it enlightening that Metzger found so many fellow travelers in the tax protest movement…it’s not a big movement, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/152 "2011-02-16T14:26:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Those idiots have LONG been around, with a motive that has NOTHING to do with race. SO WHERE WERE THEY before Obama announced his candidacy on February 10, 2007? Why NOW do the idiots just seem to come out of the woodworks? Yeah, I know they’ve been around a long time. Some are in their mid-40s, others are in their early 20s. I agree with you it has nothing do to with race. They don’t even know their motive. We don’t even understand their motive! What’s wrong with the birthers? For lack of a better word, anger. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/153 "2011-02-16T16:19:08Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > After years of Reagan’s deficit spending, Bush Sr’s tax increases, and 8 years of Bush Jr. ladling out pork to everyone imaginable except the poor, tax protesters were nearly unknown. After all these years of virtual obscurity. Suddenly they explode into a nationally visible movement around the time Obama is inaugurated, enraged at the “socialism” and “redistribution”. > > What do you suppose is the reason for these years of reticence ending around the time that (supposedly) a black President wants to use tax money to help the poor (nonwhite) people? It is the Republican plan. When you get in office spend like maniacs with the idea “deficits don’t matter”. You gut every program you possibly can that does not help your friends and the rich who support and direct your party. Then when the Dems get in, you scream about deficits and the cost of everything. This is not new. It has been blatant since Reagan. What is sad, is that some people still are dumb enough to buy it. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/154 "2011-02-16T20:47:17Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > There is some fundamental misunderstanding in this thread of the pathology that creates conspiracy theorists. There may be many birthers who are racist (though I’m sure there are many who are not). But they aren’t birthers because they’re racist. They’re birthers because conspiracy theories, for them, satisfy a pathological need, a need to answer certain questions, to blame an elite class, to belong to a tribe, to explain their powerlessness, etc. There are a number of psychological theories (some think projection is involved; some psychologists believe that those who believe in a conspiracy theory will tend to believe in many; etc.). The people in this thread looking for some sort of logical syllogism that demonstrates that birthers must be motivated by racism are completely missing the point. Simply put, conspiracy theorists are people who find conspiracy theories compelling and satisfying. Period. They are a particular type of nut. Racism is not at all a requirement (though, again, it may well be present). > > I also fully expect that this will be ignored, and the pointless debate will continue. I think you’ve got a compelling point, when we add the observation that racism fills the similar sort of psychological need. So it shouldn’t be much surprise to find that people with a predisposition to accept absurd conspiracy theories also have a predisposition to accept absurd racial theories. So I think racism and CTism are likely to have a very strong correlation–a racist is more likely to be a CTist than a non-racist, and a CTist is more likely to be a racist than a non-CTist. In fact, it’s hard to find a really virulent racist who isn’t also a CTist, who thinks there groups of Jews, Blacks, Catholics, Muslims and/or Chinamen who are carrying out secret plans to undermine White America, and Quisling white race traitors who are assisting them. Given Obama’s parentage, it shouldn’t be surprising to find that the particular Conspiracy Theory known as Birtherism has an even greater racial component than your garden variety CT. To take a parallel example, Truthers typically don’t seem very racist, while Birthers very often do. Hard to say which is the driving force–are they CTists first, who are drawn to Birtherism because they also happen to be racists, or are they racists who are drawn to Birtherism because they’re also CTists? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/155 "2011-02-16T20:59:37Z")
> [@Kozmik](#): > > SO WHERE WERE THEY before Obama announced his candidacy on February 10, 2007? Why NOW do the idiots just seem to come out of the woodworks? Yeah, I know they’ve been around a long time. Some are in their mid-40s, others are in their early 20s. I linked to a whole slough of threads on this board from and about tax protesters that predate 2/10/2007. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/156 "2011-02-16T21:01:32Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > I wasn’t arguing that all tax protesters were racist, or even that the majority of them were, just that the tax-protest movement was not entirely racist-neutral, as you had implied in your earlier post. I find it enlightening that Metzger found so many fellow travelers in the tax protest movement…it’s not a big movement, after all. I absolutely agree it’s not _entirely_ race-neutral. In the same way, I suspect there are tax protesters that hate opera and tax protesters that have type B+ blood. None of those characteristics are anything but coincidental, though. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/157 "2011-02-16T22:27:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I linked to a whole slough of threads on this board from and about tax protesters that predate 2/10/2007. I didn’t see mobs of right wingers carrying mispelled signs calling Bush a “socialist” or a “nazi,” carrying guns to venues where he was speaking and calling for “2nd amendment solutions” to the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/158 "2011-02-16T22:56:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I didn’t see mobs of right wingers carrying mispelled signs calling Bush a “socialist” or a “nazi,” carrying guns to venues where he was speaking and calling for “2nd amendment solutions” to the problem. I didn’t either. Where were these jerks? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/159 "2011-02-17T00:02:26Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I think you’ve got a compelling point, when we add the observation that racism fills the similar sort of psychological need. So it shouldn’t be much surprise to find that people with a predisposition to accept absurd conspiracy theories also have a predisposition to accept absurd racial theories. > > So I think racism and CTism are likely to have a very strong correlation–a racist is more likely to be a CTist than a non-racist, and a CTist is more likely to be a racist than a non-CTist. You may be right, though I’m not aware of any studies that show a correlation. But I wouldn’t be surprised. I’ve heard some explanations regarding how “the white man is kept down” that seem to have all the characteristics of conspiracy theories–i.e., latching on to details that support the position, ignoring the ones that contradict it; clearly the sort of “tribalism” that is the hallmark; belief in elaborate and “secret” government schemes to carry out this evil; the need to find an explanation for powerlessness and a lack of success; etc. There are garden variety racists, and then there are the conspiracy guys. Again, though, the racism seems secondary to the pathology common to conspiracy nuts. So, my answer to the OP (“What’s wrong with the birthers?”) is the same even if this is true–they’re nuts. It may be for some a minor pathology, one that permits them to function normally for the most part. But they’re nuts just the same. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269/160 "2011-02-17T00:15:38Z")
Conspiracy theorists aren’t necessarily racists, but it’s undeniable that racists are always conspiracy theorists. Klansmen and Neo-Nazis almost invariably believe that [a shadowy cabal of Jews](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government) is trying to take over the world (or has already done so). Unsurprisingly, [white supremacists are deeply into the Birther theory](http://www.sfreporter.com/santafe/article-4793-birther-of-a-nation.html). That’s not to say, of course, that all Birthers are white supremacists - but the reverse is almost certainly true. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-birthers/571269.md?page=9)