# What's Wrong With the Democratic Party? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299 "2005-10-01T03:35:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/21 "2005-10-01T15:46:02Z")
Here is what David Podvin said: [http://www.makethemaccountable.com/podvin/more/050724\_ForgingDiscord.htm](http://www.makethemaccountable.com/podvin/more/050724_ForgingDiscord.htm) Excerpt: > [@](#): > > The current tragic state of the Democratic Party is the fault of people like me. The Democrats of my state have repeatedly disgraced ourselves by choosing the vainglorious Feinstein to be our senator, despite the fact that she deliberately goes out of her way to make us regret it. She is pro-choice except when it counts, such as when a judicial filibuster is needed to save Roe v Wade. She is pro-working class except when it counts, such as when the Republicans raid the Treasury on behalf of extremely wealthy people like her. She is sneeringly contemptuous of the Democratic rank and file, yet we masochistically keep nominating her. Improbably, Democrats in states like Connecticut and Louisiana do an even worse job of selecting their champions. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/22 "2005-10-01T16:38:39Z")
The Democratic Party really suffers from two main problems that are closely linked to each other. First is the problem of not having a strong vision. The second is the desire to please all sides. At the individual level many Democrats are not wimpy or scared. However, the party apparatus is scared and thus prevents the party from putting out a strong message. This allows the Republicans to use the media to portray all Democrats as ineffectual. Case in point: the Kerry campaign. Kerry was not too liberal; his record showed him a a middle-of-the-road Senate Democrat. Kerry was not a flip-flopper. The supposed “flip flops” cited were really examples of how business is done in Washington. We will remember that in spring and early summer '04, when the right wing propaganda machine was producing 500 reams a minute about Kerry’s supposed flip flops, Kerry was leading consistently in the polls. Kerry’s problem was that he then clammed up and refused to say anything decisive, presumably because he feared that the talking heads would use whatever he said as proof of the anti-Kerry talking point du jour. So on Iraq Kerry’s position was that after he was elected the European countries would provide as with more soldier and then something would happen in Iraq or something. And his position on Social Security was, well, I can’t recall. So like I’ve said before, one clear position on Iraq and one clear position on Social Security would have given him the victory. The other problem is the please all sides dogma. Certain groups are perceived as key to Democratic Party success: Blacks, Hispanics, feminists, environmentalists and organized labor are the main ones. It has simply become a concrete principle that the Democratic Party can’t dare to disobey any of these groups. This leads to paralysis. Take immigration for instance. Speak against it and you offend Hispanics, speak for it and you offend labor. So the party is left trying to make indecisive noises that will please both sides. So the solution to all this? As others have said, put forth a clear legislative agenda and stick to it, regardless of criticism from the interest groups or withering attacks from the right wing propaganda machine. The Democratic version of the Contract with America 2006 probably ought to include: 1. Repeal the obnoxious pork barrel spending set up by the Republicans. 2. Use American troops only for national defense, never for nation building. 3. Increase fuel efficiency requirements and seriously promote research into alternate energy sources, thus reducing dependency on the Middle East. 4. Severely punish companies that violate labor law or employ illegal immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/23 "2005-10-01T16:50:15Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > A lack of focus might be a trait of the left these days. Even before the war in Iraq started there were protest against the possiblity of war and the topics at these rallies were all over the map. I remember one speaker at a rally saying the same thing at a recent rally “We’re here because a war in Iraq is wrong. We’re here to end racism. We’re here to save the environment. Etc…” Not a very focused protest. Marc Excellent point. My favorite was during one of the televised anti-war protests in Washington, one of the organizing speakers (it might have been a young woman from ANSWER) did exactly what you said, then as she was pulling herself away from the mic, she jumped back up to it and yelled, “Free Mumia!” Priceless. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/24 "2005-10-01T17:00:01Z")
I just thought it was incredibly dumb to replace Dean with Kerry. So Dean gets excited and yells at a rally. Big deal! A candidate who can fire up a crowd will play way better than a dry explanation machine (i.e. a DEM). ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/25 "2005-10-01T17:00:19Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > 1. Repeal the obnoxious pork barrel spending set up by the Republicans. What do you mean “set up by”? Do you honestly think that pork barrel spending is the mind-child of Republicans? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/26 "2005-10-01T17:05:28Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Being unable to be realistic about where one stands in relation to the center may be part of the problem. > > [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org) and its ilk raise enough money that they can credibly say of the party “we bought it.” But they drive pols to make extremist choices that simultaneously please the base and displease the center. Voting against an obvious moderate like Roberts is one. Overplaying their hand about Katrina was another. Embracing someone like Cindy Sheehan and the anti-war movement instead of offering constructive ideas on how to win in Iraq is another. > > These could be great times for a Truman democrat; someone like a Lieberman or a Bill Richardson. But it’s going to be hard for that person to win the nomination. Nail of head, meet hammer. How about JFK? If a democrat adopted is exact poolicy today he wouldn’t have a chance of getting the nomination. I think the majority of Americans are hungry for a candidate that doesn’t represent the extreme wing of either party. I think that explains the bipartisan popularity (palatability) of Joe Lieberman, John McCain, and Rudi Giulianni. These days, even Ed Koch looks right of center. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/27 "2005-10-01T17:05:46Z")
I remember the Daily Show showing some coverage of a protest, obstensibly about Iraq, but with so many other signs and the like that it was just a hodgepodge. Stewart’s response was classic, though I can’t remember it exactly. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/28 "2005-10-01T17:06:31Z")
Oops. Make that “head of nail”. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/29 "2005-10-01T17:16:54Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > The Democratic version of the Contract with America 2006 probably ought to include: > > 1. Repeal the obnoxious pork barrel spending set up by the Republicans. > > 2. Use American troops only for national defense, never for nation building. > > 3. Increase fuel efficiency requirements and seriously promote research into alternate energy sources, thus reducing dependency on the Middle East. > > 4. Severely punish companies that violate labor law or employ illegal immigrants. Exactly the sort of stuff we should see. Another couple: 1. Companies: pull an Enron under our watch, and we will come down on you like a sack of fucking hammers. We will be friendly to business, but only to business that follows the law. You may not screw people over under our watch, or you will cease to exist. 2. Budget: We are going to pay for our expenditures. Our children don’t need any more Republican debt. So if we decide that the country needs to spend money for something, we will tell you up front how we are going to pay for it, and that discussion will be central to the discussion of any new program, be it a war or a tax cut or a new social program or a new environmental law. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/30 "2005-10-01T18:44:32Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Being unable to be realistic about where one stands in relation to the center may be part of the problem. > > [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org) and its ilk raise enough money that they can credibly say of the party “we bought it.” But they drive pols to make extremist choices that simultaneously please the base and displease the center. Voting against an obvious moderate like Roberts is one. Overplaying their hand about Katrina was another. Embracing someone like Cindy Sheehan and the anti-war movement instead of offering constructive ideas on how to win in Iraq is another. > > These could be great times for a Truman democrat; someone like a Lieberman or a Bill Richardson. But it’s going to be hard for that person to win the nomination. That’s “extremism”? I think you misspelled “moderation.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/31 "2005-10-01T19:03:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Yeah, the vision thing. Heard a lot about that lately, mostly from guys who says stuff like “well, sure, the Pubbies are full of crap, but the Dems have no vision thingy! Ergo, I am compelled to vote for the guys that are full of crap!” I’ve talking about the vision thing on this board a few times, too. The Democrats’ lack of one doesn’t compel me to vote against them, but I think it hurts them when they’re stacked up against the vision of the Republicans. > [@](#): > > I propose the following Dem agaenda: > > 1. Get these idiots out of power before they kill us all! > > 2. In consulatation and compromise with honest conservatives, forge a progressive legislative agenda. We cannot be certain what form that agenda will take without such consultation and compromise, since we pledge not to adhere to a rigid ideological stance. > > 3. Get these idiots out of power before they kill us all! Funny, but again, this is expressed in the ‘it’s-the-opposite-of-what-the-GOP-is-doing’ fasion. That’s not a vision, it’s the problem. > [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > I just thought it was incredibly dumb to replace Dean with Kerry. So Dean gets excited and yells at a rally. Big deal! A candidate who can fire up a crowd will play way better than a dry explanation machine (i.e. a DEM). Dean was done before that. He lost bigtime in Iowa because he was outcampaigned by Kerry and Edwards, and probably overhyped. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/32 "2005-10-01T19:05:43Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Being unable to be realistic about where one stands in relation to the center may be part of the problem. Look in the mirror, **furt.** :rolleyes: > [@furt](#): > > [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org) and its ilk raise enough money that they can credibly say of the party “we bought it.” But they drive pols to make extremist choices that simultaneously please the base and displease the center. Voting against an obvious moderate like Roberts is one. Overplaying their hand about Katrina was another. Embracing someone like Cindy Sheehan and the anti-war movement instead of offering constructive ideas on how to win in Iraq is another. There you go. What exactly is “extremist” about any of those things? Especially as none of them are true. The Democrats have not, actually, embraced the anti-war movement, in the past election or since. And only half the Senate Democrats voted against Roberts. And how, exactly, have they “overplayed their hand” WRT Katrina? Some Dems have expressed dissatisfaction with the Admin’s preparedness for and handling of the crisis – and that has not, as yet, appeared to provoke any anti-Dem backlash. But if these things **were** true, they still would not be extremist. The '60s gave us many examples, within living memory, of what extremist politics **really** look like – and even the Black Panthers, Yippies and Weathermen were moderates compared to their counterparts in other countries. And we see nothing like that in American politics today – certainly not in [Moveon.org](http://Moveon.org). :rolleyes: 😛 :rolleyes: What fucking planet are you living on, **furt?** ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/33 "2005-10-01T19:07:17Z")
The 800 pound gorilla in the room that hasn’t been mentioned before is the tremendous imbalance in control of the media. Right now, the Repubs have a well-developed spin machine that can take any molehill and work it up to mountain status on a moment’s notice. Remember the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth – despite the fact that their allegations about Kerry were totally baseless and swiftly and thoroughy debunked, they were able to get those allegations into the mainstream media for months because the conservative network of FOX News, hate radio and talking heads kept bringing them up. The reason the Dems are keeping quiet right now is that ALL the news for the Pubbies is bad … their poor governance has finally come home to roost. And so long as the Dems don’t say anything much, the Pubbie spin machine has no traction. They just have to keep denying the Administration’s many failures, which keeps the mainstream media focussed on those failures. Should the Dems say ANYTHING the least bit controversial, the Pubbie spin machine will be on it like a pack of starving wolves, trying to get the media focussed on THAT instead of the many, many failures of the current Administration. When and if theings ever go right again for the Bushies (their governance has been bad enough that it’s very reasonable to suppose that the rest of the Administration will be an unending litany of failure) THEN it will be time for the Dems to speak up. So long as the mainstream medai keep focussed on Republican disasters, the Dems do well to keep silent, and not feed the Pubbies any new grist for the propaganda mills. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/34 "2005-10-01T19:08:52Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > As long as the Democrats are afraid of boldness, nobody’s going to care enough to vote for them. The Democrats need to study the Contract with America, and they need to put forth their own bold proposals in an easily understandable format. > > The Republicans will call us populists. The Republicans will call us extremists. The Republicans will mock us for being out of touch with America. Why would the Pubs “call us populists”? In what American circles nowadays is “populist” considered a bad word? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/35 "2005-10-01T19:12:09Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > The reason the Dems are keeping quiet right now is that ALL the news for the Pubbies is bad … their poor governance has finally come home to roost. And so long as the Dems don’t say anything much, the Pubbie spin machine has no traction. They just have to keep denying the Administration’s many failures, which keeps the mainstream media focussed on those failures. Should the Dems say ANYTHING the least bit controversial, the Pubbie spin machine will be on it like a pack of starving wolves, trying to get the media focussed on THAT instead of the many, many failures of the current Administration. While I think the Dem silence NOW is a good thing, that’s only because the Dems don’t have anything nice to say. If the Dems had unveiled their twelve-step program for the country (or whatever you want to call it–a less snarky name would be good) several months prior to Katrina, then it would have been a powerful tactic to say, “As we’ve said, once we’re in power, point #10 on our plan is to refocus attention on our internal security. You’ll note that in our proposed spending bill, we’ve renewed funding for vital infrastructres like levees, and we’ve called for bringing the National Guard home. Here’s how our plan would have resulted in saving lives. We urge the president to adopt our plan immediately, because it’s better late than never.” Daniel ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/36 "2005-10-01T19:12:31Z")
> [@furt](#): > > In my discipline (English) Marxism runs waaay ahead of any sort of classicism, and students with conservative views feel quite ill-at-ease. 😕 How exactly is Marxism applicable, or thought to be applicable, to literary studies? And how, for that matter, is “classicism” applicable to literary studies? > [@furt](#): > > In any event, the reference to Marx is telling. In 2005, Marxism is not “left”; it is batshit kooky nutbar left. Even bringing it up is indicative of an outdated and unrealistic frame of reference. It’s like someone claiming that they’re not far-right by pointing out that they’ve dropped their opposition to interracial marriage. :rolleyes: That might be true in the United States – and practically nowhere else on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/37 "2005-10-01T19:14:40Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Money is god in the US and the other guys are the party of the big money. > > Purchasing power: It’s the native disadvantage of the Democrats. But what makes you think the Dems are **not** a party of big money? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/38 "2005-10-01T19:30:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How about JFK? If a democrat adopted is exact poolicy today he wouldn’t have a chance of getting the nomination. I think the majority of Americans are hungry for a candidate that doesn’t represent the extreme wing of either party. 😕 What exactly was “extreme” about JFK? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/39 "2005-10-01T19:35:25Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > When and if theings ever go right again for the Bushies . . . THEN it will be time for the Dems to speak up. 😕 What exactly is the logic behind attacking when the enemy is strongest? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299/40 "2005-10-01T19:38:21Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 What exactly was “extreme” about JFK? I think in the new conservative lexicon, “extreme” means “not Republican.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-democratic-party/324299.md?page=3)