# What's wrong with the EPA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 28, 2017, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414 "2017-01-28T18:40:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/41 "2017-02-03T02:47:20Z")
Also, the EPA is too “new” to be respectable in some minds. The EPA was founded in 1970. Right-wing Republicans have been complaining about “alphabet soup” agencies since the 1930’s. Many political conservatives over the last few decades grew to adulthood in a world without an EPA–granted, a world where rivers caught fire, but they were young then, and their nostalgia tells them it was a better world. The younger ones don’t remember what it was like before, and take our less polluted air and water for granted. And there’s an astronomically large philosophical gulf; between conservationists who believe in the Endangered Species Act; and whatever you call those who despise an entire species of life for being small, obscure, and unimpressive. A party that praises the famous and wealthy while despising the poor and the working class, and courts bigots while lampooning integration, already has the moral outlook to despise blind cave fish or insects that live only high on mountainsides. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/42 "2017-02-03T02:55:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > As to the motivation / incentive, here’s another aspect common to conservative’s worldviews: it’s not uncommon for bureaucracies to take on a life of their own, working to gain additional power and budget. You can read up on [Parkinson’s Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_law) sometime if you’re interested in it. And yet, conservatives have objected to \*regulatory \*alphabet soup agencies since they were founded. And yet, the highway department and the army always get funded. So it’s not a stand on _that_ principle. It’s that EPA is seen as making it harder to look like you’re doing something. You don’t get to pour concrete everywhere, you have to ask permission, you have to spend more money, it’s annoying. But to society, yeah, EPA is worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/43 "2017-02-03T17:20:07Z")
The EPA shut down the Ghostbusters’ containment unit and led to the coming of Gozer. I will never forgive them for that. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/44 "2017-02-05T00:07:02Z")
We used to control aphids on our rose bushes with DDT. It’s been 50+years, so I can’t recall the name, but there was an industrial-strength solvent sold as a stain remover for household use. The “freon” in your air conditioner is a PCB in gaseous form. It will NEVER degrade. Regs require your HVAC guy to capture the stuff. That second hose on the gas pump is a capture line for the gasoline fumes. The little flap inside the gas fill port is there to seal off the tank with the pump’s nozzle is in it. Car gas caps were often left on the pump and the car driven without a cap for weeks. My mother often painted me up “like an Indian’s war paint” using mercury-based first-aid materials. Our “spray-on” deodorant was propelled by PCB gas. That transformer on the “telephone pole” had liquid PCB insulation. The shoe store had the neat machine to show the parents how much “growing room” the shoe gave the kid. It gave off several times more X-rays as a medical X-ray (actually an X-ray is a type of radiation). My parents told me that the huge smokestack belching black crap into the air was actually a source of civic pride. Do I need to point out that cars getting 10 MPG emit more gasses than one getting 30 MPG? There are lots of people who firmly believe that, if there were no EPA rules, then 1957 would return and high-sulfur coal would again be profitable, those (anybody not white) would know there place and stay in it, etc. It is either incredibly sad or really, really scary. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/45 "2017-02-05T01:49:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You started this thread asking about what beef conservatives have with the EPA. This is one of them. It’s certainly not uncommon for conservatives to view it as a power grab. It’s even in [the GOP platform](https://www.gop.com/platform/americas-natural-resources/): > > As to the motivation / incentive, here’s another aspect common to conservative’s worldviews: it’s not uncommon for bureaucracies to take on a life of their own, working to gain additional power and budget. You can read up on [Parkinson’s Law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_law) sometime if you’re interested in it. Yes, they view it as a power grab, but what I’m asking for is any evidence of nefarious activity by the EPA. So far I haven’t seen anything. I’m looking for evidence of the EPA deciding to create regulations for the purpose of hurting business, or creating a regulation not based on evidence, or even creating a regulation with little environmental benefit but places a huge crushing burden on business. There should be plenty of examples of these situations given the hatred of the EPA by conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/46 "2017-02-05T02:35:31Z")
> [@nate](#): > > Yes, they view it as a power grab, but what I’m asking for is any evidence of nefarious activity by the EPA. So far I haven’t seen anything. I’m looking for evidence of the EPA deciding to create regulations for the purpose of hurting business, or creating a regulation not based on evidence, or even creating a regulation with little environmental benefit but places a huge crushing burden on business. There should be plenty of examples of these situations given the hatred of the EPA by conservatives. You’ve created a straw man argument when you added the caveat that hurting a business is an intention of the EPA. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/47 "2017-02-05T09:35:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’ve created a straw man argument when you added the caveat that hurting a business is an intention of the EPA. I don’t believe I am considering I’ve heard several conservative co-workers say the EPA has an agenda to shut down coal plants. I think they truly believe that. But, whatever, let’s assume they don’t and no conservative really believes this. Then we are back at what our society’s evolved answer to the tragedy of the commons, having a large group of experts study, create and enforce regulations to protect our commons. And of course, the cost of doing business would rise due to this, because it’s always cheaper not have to contain your pollutants. I think we could all agree about this. So the bitching session SHOULD be about specific regulations that don’t make any sense but I haven’t seen one example in this thread so far. I’m confident that there are some out there, so please educate me. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/48 "2017-02-05T15:08:59Z")
Nobody wants dirty air and water. However the epa has largely succeeded at the mission it was given in the seventies to clean up the environment. The problem is that for the epa to continue to exist it has to keep showing that there is something it is still needed for. So they decide that a 99% cleanup is insufficient and they need 99.9% then 99.99% and so on. Unfortunately each 9 you add increases the cost of such cleanup beyond what is economically feasible while at the same time getting smaller and smaller real returns on said cleanup. ---
**Author:** ![Hocus\_Pocus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/41988e/32.png) [@Hocus\_Pocus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hocus_Pocus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/49 "2017-02-05T15:13:52Z")
Show me someone who is against the EPA, and I’ll show you someone who never had to breathe the air in Southern California during the 70’s. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/50 "2017-02-05T17:29:44Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/51 "2017-02-05T17:35:06Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > Nobody wants dirty air and water. However the epa has largely succeeded at the mission it was given in the seventies to clean up the environment. \*\*The problem is that for the epa to continue to exist it has to keep showing that there is something it is still needed for. \*\*So they decide that a 99% cleanup is insufficient and they need 99.9% then 99.99% and so on. Unfortunately each 9 you add increases the cost of such cleanup beyond what is economically feasible while at the same time getting smaller and smaller real returns on said cleanup. (Bolding mine) I don’t buy that at all. Are you saying that industry would continue to comply with non-enforced, no longer existing regulations? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/52 "2017-02-05T17:37:41Z")
> [@nate](#): > > I don’t believe I am considering I’ve heard several conservative co-workers say the EPA has an agenda to shut down coal plants. I think they truly believe that. Like any government agency the EPA is steered in the direction of those in power. So yes, by extension, the EPA attacked coal plants under Obama. We just had 2 shut down in my state. That’s not a coincidence or part a belief system. Any time power is given to a government it is subject to abuse. It is why Conservatives prefer a smaller government. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/53 "2017-02-05T17:43:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Like any government agency the EPA is steered in the direction of those in power. So yes, by extension, the EPA attacked coal plants under Obama. We just had 2 shut down in my state. That’s not a coincidence or part a belief system. > > Any time power is given to a government it is subject to abuse. \*\* It is why Conservatives prefer a smaller government.\*\* Holy fuck, that was _hilarious!!!_ ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/54 "2017-02-05T17:59:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Like any government agency the EPA is steered in the direction of those in power. So yes, by extension, the EPA attacked coal plants under Obama. We just had 2 shut down in my state. That’s not a coincidence or part a belief system. Uh, it is almost all a coincidence or a belief. > **[Natural Gas Ambush Killed Off Coal Mining Industry, Not Obama's 'War on Coal'](https://reason.com/2016/10/11/natural-gas-ambush-killed-off-coal-minin/)** > > Coal got mugged by natural gas, not regulators. > [@](#): > > Natural Gas Ambush Killed Off Coal Mining Industry, Not Obama’s ‘War on Coal’ > > … > > So why is the U.S. economy decarbonizing? Because of Obama’s regulatory “war on coal” or because of technological progress? Researchers at the Great Lakes Energy Institute at Case Western Reserve University have just published a study in The Electricity Journal that traces the prices and fates of natural gas versus coal in the production of electricity. As the researchers point out, the regulations under which the electric power generation industry operated were adopted in the 1990s and only changed this past summer. However, the number of coal-fired generation plants started declining around 2008 as cheaper natural gas from shale fracking revolution began to come onto the market. The Case Western Reserve University press release outlines the case: > > > [@](#): > > > > Between 2007 and 2015, shale gas prices dropped almost in half, positioning natural gas to outprice coal mined in four of the five U.S. coal regions…the benchmark gas prices (“Henry Hub” prices) in the past four years [have been] cheaper than the coal of the two regions in Appalachian for over 88% of the months. Further, gas has been cheaper than the coal of Appalachia, Illinois, and the Rockies for over 57% of the months. Even the cheapest coal, in Wyoming’s Powder River Basin, competes poorly in the great population centers east of the Mississippi once rail transport of $0.03 per ton-mile is considered. That prompted investment in pipelines and gas storage infrastructure that have made gas even more competitive. > [@](#): > > Largely thanks to the shale gas revolution, the U.S. does appear to be treading Ausubel’s light path toward energy decarbonization. Coal got mugged by natural gas, not regulators. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/55 "2017-02-05T18:04:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Like any government agency the EPA is steered in the direction of those in power. So yes, by extension, **the EPA attacked coal plants under Obama**. We just had 2 shut down in my state. That’s not a coincidence or part a belief system. > > Any time power is given to a government it is subject to abuse. It is why Conservatives prefer a smaller government. (bolding mine) But what I’m asking for is some evidence that the EPA has created regulations with shady means with a pre-established end goal. For example, say Obama states he wants to regulate the coal industry out of existence, gives this directive to the EPA to make this happen, and then the EPA creates evidence to form regulations to implement Obama’s agenda. The “creates evidence” is the nefarious act. But is there any reason to think this sort of thing happens? Is there any evidence of that? Or is it really just projection on the part of the anti-EPA conservative crowd? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/56 "2017-02-05T18:32:28Z")
It’s typical rightie modus operandi. Overstate the impact of every individual action till you create a coherent narrative about the larger story. Look, we do have an EPA for a reason. If you have ten polluting industries in a given location and only one of them decides to the the environmentally responsible thing, they absorb a cost, put themselves at a competitive disadvantage, and have only marginal impact on the problem because the other nine are still polluting. If, on the other hand, they wait until the other nine do so, it hasn’t cost them a thing and the air or water is now mostly unpolluted. Under such a dynamic, nobody is going to go first. Hence the necessity for them being mandated to do so if we, as a society and through our votes, say that we want air that we can’t see and rivers that don’t catch fire. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/57 "2017-02-05T18:35:05Z")
> [@nate](#): > > (bolding mine) But what I’m asking for is some evidence that the EPA has created regulations with shady means with a pre-established end goal. For example, say Obama states he wants to regulate the coal industry out of existence, gives this directive to the EPA to make this happen, and then the EPA creates evidence to form regulations to implement Obama’s agenda. The “creates evidence” is the nefarious act. But is there any reason to think this sort of thing happens? Is there any evidence of that? Or is it really just projection on the part of the anti-EPA conservative crowd? If Obama comes in and says coal is evil and Trump comes in and dictates coal is king then that’s the direction the EPA takes. I’m not going down a semantic rabbit hole arguing how it’s done. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/58 "2017-02-05T19:00:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If Obama comes in and says coal is evil and Trump comes in and dictates coal is king then that’s the direction the EPA takes. I’m not going down a semantic rabbit hole arguing how it’s done. Translation: I can’t back up my claim. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/59 "2017-02-05T19:27:08Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Translation: I can’t back up my claim. Are you really suggesting the President of the United States doesn’t influence government agencies? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414/60 "2017-02-05T19:33:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Are you really suggesting the President of the United States doesn’t influence government agencies? Translation: I will attempt a deflection because I still can’t back up my claim. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-wrong-with-the-epa/778414.md?page=4)