# What's your opinion on circumcision? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582 "2007-01-26T17:14:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/181 "2007-01-31T13:46:14Z")
Just jumping in here randomly, but the thing that always bothers me about these arguments is the “sexual function” arguments, as exemplified by **catsix** and **DSeid** : [QUOTE=catsix] [QUOTE=DSeid] Again no study has shown that to be the case. The above anecdote is an extreme example of the converse and studies show, if anything, a lesser degree of painful intercourse and erectile difficulties and greater sexual variety in circumcised males. [/QUOTE] How can it not have an effect on sexual pleasure when you cut off a part of the body that is, in addition to its function of protecting the glans, an erogenous zone? [/QUOTE] Is there any competing study from the intactivist side that indicates that sexual dysfunction in circumcised males is greater than that in uncircumcised ones, or is this purely a matter of speculation on the part of the intactivists (what a silly-sounding word that is!) based on their feelings on the matter? Full disclosure: circumcised as an infant, wife prefers it that way (having had similar experiences to **eleanorigby** ), on the fence about any kids we may or (most likely) may not have. Also in the “slightly mystified by the commotion” camp as I honestly can’t imagine needing or wanting more sexual sensitivity and i lack the feelings **alphaboi** and others have regarding reminders of ownership of my body at one point–but then again, given my upbringing, I had a significant uphill battle with my parents over ownership of my emotional and intellectual self, which held far more significance for me. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/182 "2007-01-31T14:34:30Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] The same benefits, to an even greater degree and much, much more reliably, can be achieved with condom usage and not being promiscuous. [/QUOTE] The same could be said of the HPV vaccine (or some theoretical AIDS vaccine) - would you agree that therefore such vaccines are a hideous attack on a child’s bodily integrity? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/183 "2007-01-31T14:59:29Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] So, you are pro-circumcision for boys based on medical reasons, correct? [/QUOTE] No. I made my own personal choice which was swayed by the medical evidence. “Pro-circumcision” would imply that I’m out there going “Rah! Rah! Circumcision!” > [@catsix](#): > > The same benefits, to an even greater degree and much, much more reliably, can be achieved with condom usage and not being promiscuous I wasn’t aware that the two were mutually exclusive. > [@Shodan](#): > > The same could be said of the HPV vaccine Which, coincidentally, is most effective when given around ages 9-11, a window when most of us wouldn’t normally entrust our children to making their own medical decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/184 "2007-01-31T16:24:49Z")
[QUOTE=spazurek] Nails are dead. That’s just grooming. Ear piercing, done at an age before the kid can object, does indeed violate the kid’s right to bodily integrity. To me this is more obnoxious than outright wrong because it’s a pretty trivial bodily alteration – something that certainly cannot be said for circumcision. [/QUOTE] The difference here being, it seems that most of us do consider circumcision to be a pretty trivial body alteration. ---
**Author:** ![Hogwash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e57/32.png) [@Hogwash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogwash)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/185 "2007-01-31T18:11:16Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] So, you are pro-circumcision for boys based on medical reasons, correct? [/QUOTE] No. If two parents are circumcising their boy purely for medical reasons, I would respect them more than those doing it for cultural/religious reasons, but I would still disagree with the circumcision. As has been said, the medical reasons are currently based on sketchy evidence. That said, if everybody was circumcising infants today for health benefits I would care a lot less about this issue, but I fear that not to be the case, far from it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/186 "2007-01-31T19:18:35Z")
[QUOTE=spazurek] Nails are dead. That’s just grooming. Ear piercing, done at an age before the kid can object, does indeed violate the kid’s right to bodily integrity. To me this is more obnoxious than outright wrong because it’s a pretty trivial bodily alteration – something that certainly cannot be said for circumcision. [/QUOTE] So that _absolute_ right of bodily integrity is not really absolute. It is relative to what _you_ consider trivial or significant, or even as part of the body vs grooming and subject to what _you_ consider is evidence as more benefit than harm. How would you feel about a child with a large birthmark on the face: should any decision about removal wait until adulthood? Is orthodonture a violation of these absolute rights? You may begin to see that reality is not so clear as moral absolutes. Reality is about balancing and weighting different moral imperatives. The parent’s right to make decisions on their child’s behalf. The child’s right to be protected from abusive decisions. The value placed on different possible benefits, both medical and cultural. The value of respecting different religious and cultural traditions in a pluralistic society. How much risk. And so on. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/187 "2007-01-31T20:12:38Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] I am still curious about what you all think of my previously posted > [@](#): > > Nacirema which have children go to special healers, often prepubertally, who ritualistically, attach various devices inside childrens mouths, and actually, by prolonged physical force, and obviously with some discomfort, cause physical change to the whole mouth structure, distorting it in the hope that such distortions will mark the child as one of higher status within the tribe. And they do. Bizzare and unaceptable to you as well perhaps, but it is easy to just judge. This is a real group that has been extensively studied. Are they wrong to engage in those practices? [/QUOTE] You’re comparing braces to circumcision? I guess tooth extraction’s right out too? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/188 "2007-01-31T20:24:43Z")
[QUOTE=Jophiel] …around ages 9-11, a window when most of us wouldn’t normally entrust our children to making their own medical decisions. [/QUOTE] True, but a 9-11 year old is capable of having _some_ input into their care. Would have your 10 year old son circumcised against his will? And a vaccine isn’t a good comparison to circumcision since it doesn’t do any cosmetic damage. At most you’d end up with a small scar (like with a smallpox vaccination) at injection site. Circumcision significantly changes the appearence of the penis. > [@](#): > > You’re comparing braces to circumcision? I guess tooth extraction’s right out too? If you’re talking about extracting baby teeth they’d fall out anyway a new one will grow in it’s place. The same is not true of a foreskin. I doubt any dentist would remove an adult tooth for cosmetic reasons if the patient (even if underage) objected. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/189 "2007-01-31T20:27:56Z")
All good points. But then, I wasn’t trying to equivocate the two either. Just pointing on a coincidental similarity in the “window of opportunity” aspect. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/190 "2007-01-31T21:23:13Z")
[QUOTE=Jophiel] No. I made my own personal choice which was swayed by the medical evidence. “Pro-circumcision” would imply that I’m out there going “Rah! Rah! Circumcision!” [/QUOTE] What you said was, “it played a major role in my own decision.” I don’t understand your point about not being “rah, rah!” for circumcision. You do advocate for it, at least neonatally. You’re talking about sparing your son the extremely treatable disease of skin cancer somewhere after the year 2067, while denying him a lifetime of the use of a large, highly sensitive erogenous portion of his penis. HIV prevention? Yeah, if you live in certain parts of Africa. Maybe. Outside of Israel, where circumcision is something like 95%, the US, at around 80% has the highest incidence of HIV infection in world - among wealthy, modern industrialized nations. Japan OTOH with a circumcision rate somewhere between 1-3%, doesn’t even show up the charts for HIV prevalence. Correlation between circumcision and HIV infection? Heck, even Israel with its 95% circumcision rate, has an HIV prevalence of 0.1%. Another thing I frequently hear, not necessarily from you - I’m too lazy to check - is “some women prefer it.” What a load of popularized, institutionalized, internalized anti-male misandry that is. Can you imagine the outcry if we advocated neonatal circumcision of girls in nice clean, sterile hospital settings because anecdotally, “some men prefer it”? ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/191 "2007-01-31T21:40:27Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] Another thing I frequently hear, not necessarily from you - I’m too lazy to check - is “some women prefer it.” What a load of popularized, institutionalized, internalized anti-male misandry that is. Can you imagine the outcry if we advocated neonatal circumcision of girls in nice clean, sterile hospital settings because anecdotally, “some men prefer it”? [/QUOTE] I can’t speak for women, but both my boyfriend and I prefer it. ---
**Author:** ![AngelicGemma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/439d5e/32.png) [@AngelicGemma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelicGemma)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/192 "2007-01-31T21:47:55Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] I can’t speak for women, but both my boyfriend and I prefer it. [/QUOTE] People tend to prefer what they are used to. Ask Americans, and you get your answer. Ask a Brit and your answer will be “Circumcised? Oh that just looks too strange!” ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/193 "2007-01-31T21:47:59Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] I can’t speak for women, but both my boyfriend and I prefer it. [/QUOTE] Good for you, but that doesn’t change the fact that’s it’s beyond presumptuous for parents to surgically alter their child’s body to make it more sexually attractive to someone the kid may never even want to have sex with. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/194 "2007-01-31T21:49:50Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] I can’t speak for women, but both my boyfriend and I prefer it. [/QUOTE] Maybe you also prefer big dicks, or dicks with PAs, or condoms with ribs. So what? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/195 "2007-01-31T21:50:02Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] The same could be said of the HPV vaccine (or some theoretical AIDS vaccine) - would you agree that therefore such vaccines are a hideous attack on a child’s bodily integrity? Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] If the vaccine caused permanent disfigurement and was given to infants who couldn’t make the decision themselves, then yes, it would be a hideous attack on bodily integrity. For what it’s worth, my four month old son is not circumcized. I am, I don’t care too much either way about it and don’t hate my parents. But it is an unnecessary mutilation that really shouldn’t be done without some reason. In my opinion, “Mom thinks it looks better”, or even “that’s tradition”, is not an acceptable reason. I mean, if you don’t like the analogies given so far, what about earlobes, septums, the webbing between the fingers and toes, even pinkies, etc.; would people really be vociferously defending parents rights to chop these off willy-nilly for aesthetic reasons? Sure, it may not impede the child in life that much, but it really isn’t the parent’s decision to make. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/196 "2007-01-31T22:05:15Z")
[QUOTE=AngelicGemma] People tend to prefer what they are used to. Ask Americans, and you get your answer. Ask a Brit and your answer will be “Circumcised? Oh that just looks too strange!” [/QUOTE] The reason I replied like I did was because it was put forth that a preference for such things was anti-male. That makes no sense to me. I’m more than willing to admit that I’m culturally biased about it. If I were to have any sons(which is highly unlikely), I would probably have them circ’d. Yes, there are some medical benefits and its also the ‘norm’ in this country. I don’t see that it does them any harm, so why not. I’m not saying everyone should do it, but as I’ve said before, I don’t get the big deal about it. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/197 "2007-01-31T22:18:15Z")
I realize the not getting the big deal comment sounds flippant. It really isn’t meant that way. I have honestly thought through the arguments presented by those that are opposed to circumcision, but have not come to the same conclusions they have. I realize that for several of our dopers this is a major issue that has caused them a lot of pain in their life and I do respect that. I will say that I don’t believe I will ever understand it. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/198 "2007-01-31T22:22:54Z")
[QUOTE=Antinor01] The reason I replied like I did was because it was put forth that a preference for such things was anti-male. That makes no sense to me. [/QUOTE] Yet again you invite analogy. The idea girls should be circumcised because some men prefer it is absurd, aberrant, abhorrent, anti-female and overwhelmingly practiced in Egypt and illegal in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/199 "2007-01-31T22:33:57Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] Yet again you invite analogy. The idea girls should be circumcised because some men prefer it is absurd, aberrant, abhorrent, anti-female and overwhelmingly practiced in Egypt and illegal in the US. [/QUOTE] If that were the only reason that people did it, then I would agree that it were absurd to do neonatal circumcision. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582/200 "2007-01-31T23:10:34Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] You’re comparing braces to circumcision? [/QUOTE] Of course I am. By the absolute rights espoused here braces are even worse. Kids often express their desire to not have them and yet they are still placed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-circumcision/389582.md?page=11)