# What's your opinion on hazing? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 9, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362 "2018-08-09T19:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BobBitchin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ea924/32.png) [@BobBitchin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobBitchin)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/21 "2018-08-09T23:36:04Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I was listing a continuum of theorized types of hazing, roughly ordered from least bad to (hopefully) obviously bad. And I was using ‘snipe hunt’ as a generalized term referring to any type of false time-wasting errand that ‘the new guy’ might get sent on - looking for a left-handed monkey wrench, a fictional room or department, that sort of thing. It’s my understanding that there are some occupations where that sort of thing happens, including the military. Mechanics do it.😃 Blinker fluid Radiator cap for a corvair/bug Muffler bearings ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2018, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/22 "2018-08-09T23:57:02Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > The ship that I sailed on several years ago still does a line-crossing ceremony when they cross the equator. They’re a bit secretive about the details, but I get the impression it’s rather like an amateur talent show for the first-time crossers. I don’t think they’d take it too far. I don’t know what the ceremony is now, but this is how Doug Stanton described it as it was during WWII in the book _In Harm’s Way_: > [@](#): > > The induction into King Neptune’s domain, for example, which was carried out when a ship crossed the equator, could be a daunting affair. On one ship, the induction, which was meant to strengthen esprit among the boys, involved older officers ordering the green hands to strip, and while dressed only in black neckties, push a peanut across the deck with their noses. Next they met King Neptune himself, usually a fat crew member whose belly had been rubbed in shaving cream, and which the polliwogs rubbed their faces in. This was called “kissing the royal pudding.” Finally the recruits entered the King’s Chamber, which was actually an artillery target sleeve filled with garbage. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/23 "2018-08-10T00:13:24Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Because they were 18 and stupid. > > I challenge the basis of hazing. Commitment to a group should be built up over time with extended efforts and not the relatively instantaneous result of a few days of doing stupid things in public. This is how the real world works: when you get to a new workplace there won’t be any rituals or ceremonies to make you feel like you belong,\* you have to prove yourself over time. Any humiliations will come as a result of your inability to perform, and that’s as it should be. > > \*at least no workplace I’ve ever been in. Teenage hazing is most definitely part of the real world, because there is no fake world. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/24 "2018-08-10T00:15:26Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Teenage hazing is most definitely part of the real world, because there is no fake world. Are you sure? I thought that’s where the fake news comes from. ---
**Author:** ![betterlifethroughchemistry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/betterlifethroughchemistry/32/3094_2.png) [@betterlifethroughchemistry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betterlifethroughchemistry)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/25 "2018-08-10T00:18:25Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I was listing a continuum of theorized types of hazing, roughly ordered from least bad to (hopefully) obviously bad. And I was using ‘snipe hunt’ as a generalized term referring to any type of false time-wasting errand that ‘the new guy’ might get sent on - looking for a left-handed monkey wrench, a fictional room or department, that sort of thing. It’s my understanding that there are some occupations where that sort of thing happens, including the military. Hazing that involves inflicting personal pain, potential harm and extreme humiliation is creepy… Having been through the mild hazing of being a tenderfoot Boy Scout (snipe hunt), and sending a fresh out of college chemist on the hunt for a left-handed gel puller, the milder and benign forms of hazing can be fun, OK, you want to call BS and walk away, nobody cares…but IMHE, everyone just laughs and gets the joke… Hazing that requires someone to cower and submit, that’s totally wrong… ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/26 "2018-08-10T00:25:40Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > I don’t know what the ceremony is now, but this is how Doug Stanton described it as it was during WWII in the book _In Harm’s Way_: > > > [@](#): > > > > The induction into King Neptune’s domain, for example, which was carried out when a ship crossed the equator, could be a daunting affair. On one ship, the induction, which was meant to strengthen esprit among the boys, involved older officers ordering the green hands to strip, and while dressed only in black neckties, push a peanut across the deck with their noses. Next they met King Neptune himself, usually a fat crew member whose belly had been rubbed in shaving cream, and which the polliwogs rubbed their faces in. This was called “kissing the royal pudding.” Finally the recruits entered the King’s Chamber, which was actually an artillery target sleeve filled with garbage. I don’t think my ship would take it that far. For one thing, it’s co-ed. Very traditional, and there’s definite crew bonding (and you really do need to learn to work together), but I don’t think they’d risk anything dangerous. Now that I remember, the first mate did once send me to get a long weight. I thought I was being had, knew for sure when the engineer told me it was on a shelf next to the prop wash. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/27 "2018-08-10T01:05:42Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > The frats known for the most difficult, and even brutal, hazing were the most popular ones…They had huge numbers of new recruits hoping to allowed to pledge. People also watch scary horror movies. In principle I understand that taking your date to a horror movie builds and strengthens your relationship, in a similar way to hazing. but I’d probably rather do the hazing than the horror movie. Given the well known and well documented benefits of hazing, I guess I regard it a bit like coffee drinking or smoking: if you want to join that kind of group then it’s your choice. But given the well known dangers, it’s also an activity that cries out for regulation and supervision. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/28 "2018-08-10T04:41:46Z")
I am against it and think it should be stopped but the question becomes how. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/29 "2018-08-10T04:47:30Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > To be fair, most of the places I’ve worked in there _isn’t_ a commitment to the group. People come to do their job, and if other people start vanishing people will worry more about how it effects their workload than how it’ll effect the group(aka the company) as a whole. You are fair. I spent most of my working career in newspapers, which tend to foster more fellow feeling than your average office environment, I suppose. But I think in almost any work environment some people will be appreciated more than others. Sometimes it’s personality or good looks. All I ever had to offer was doing a good job quickly, and that was my niche. **DaRvid** , college is fantasy land compared to any work environment you can name. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/30 "2018-08-10T05:48:05Z")
One club I belonged to in high school, as an initiation someone came around to all the initiates’ houses at about 5am, made us wear funny shirts, then took us to breakfast. My parents were in on it of course, as they’d been called a day or two ahead of time for permission. That’s about as extreme a hazing as I would tolerate. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/31 "2018-08-10T11:22:48Z")
It’s immoral, often sadistic and a method of psychological manipulation. Cults, gangs and the like use similar techniques. The basic principle is simple; get someone to do something unpleasant, stupid or criminal in the name of a cause or group and they become psychologically invested in it. They will be reluctant to admit any wrongdoing or to leave the group because doing so means admitting that what they did was stupid or evil. As something of a corollary, the more extreme the group the more extreme the “hazing” or initiation ritual is in order to create more intense devotion. So more mainstream organizations have hazing that’s humiliating and painful, but usually not deliberately fatal to anyone. On the other extreme you end up with gang initiations involving beating or killing people, and the Chinese revolutionaries & Christian Crusaders who cannibalized their opponents to prove their devotion. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/32 "2018-08-10T11:30:49Z")
Aside from it being wrong, how does “welcoming” a newcomer to a group with hostility and humiliation possibly get them started in right or on good terms? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/33 "2018-08-10T11:47:57Z")
I’m having definitional issues here - if the activity is harmless, is it “hazing”? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/34 "2018-08-10T12:16:52Z")
There is nothing positive about the concept in any way, even before we reach the point of humiliation or abuse. There have been a few comments about a sort of “buy-in” to a group. I also hear people talk about “paying your dues”, which I regard as a thinly veiled rationalization for treating new people badly. I have zero interest in being a part of any group that thinks this way. New people at a workplace need to be trained, gained skills and experience and it should be done in a professional, humane manner \*. Too many industries already eat their own young - my friends in nursing and teaching can give an earful on that. As for social groups… the concept of hazing is utterly bizarre to me. Why would I want to socialize with people who think that way? Any group that wants to haze people in any way has already told me everything I need to know about them. - An interesting example of this was the Metallica documentary, “Some Kind of Monster”. When they were looking for a new bass player, they were determined to treat the new member well because they realized how they had screwed themselves over by how they treated Jason Newsted. When they eventually hired Robert Trujillo, the band is seen offering him a $1 million advance to join. That was anti-hazing, and it seemed a hard learned lesson. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/35 "2018-08-10T12:19:06Z")
I have no use for it. In a misguided attempt to “be a good sport,” I submitted myself to a Bluenose initiation the _second_ time I crossed the Arctic Circle (well, technically the THIRD time, but they don’t run them on southbound trips). It was unpleasant and puerile enough to convince me that declining to participate during my first crossing had been the right decision. The following year, I decided that the fact of being aboard a vessel as it crossed the equator was sufficient to make me a shellback, and the initiation was a superfluous exercise in self-debasement. I don’t regret not having been awarded a fancy certificate commemorating the event; the one I got after the Bluenose initiation I put into a drawer, and threw away when I moved out of military housing. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/36 "2018-08-10T12:29:13Z")
For teams and such it directly runs counter to team cohesion. _Making_ the team is the trial. Harassing a teammate in any way is never a good idea. Even the MLB rookie harassments are not “in good fun” and should be completely stopped. And no, hazing does not “rarely” lead to injuries, deaths, etc. They are quite common. E.g., two incidents I remember at one university I taught at: 1. A pledge was forced fed a lot of alcohol and drugs. When he was passed out and barely breathing the frat’s solution was to dump him off in front of a bar and take off. He died. 2. A frat’s hazing ritual involved forcing pledges to swim a cold pond in a park. One pledge went down and didn’t come up. The genius frat boys’ solution: Call 991? Jump in and search? Nope: run off. One death like this is far too many. Two within just a few years is unbelievably horrid. Hazing of any sort, verbal or physical, is contrary to basic human decency. It reveals a basic evil streak in the heart of the hazers. They try to justify it but it always comes down to just wanting to hurt people. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/37 "2018-08-10T12:37:42Z")
There are non-malicious ways to get the same benefit. For instance, when I was in marching band in college, the freshmen had to do things like load and unload all the instruments, and clean out the bus whenever we traveled somewhere. Nobody wanted to do these things, but they were things that genuinely needed to be done: It was just a question of by whom. By shifting them onto the freshmen, we got them done while also instilling that sense of “buy-in” and “paying one’s dues”. There was also a tradition of freshmen using the “guest meals” on their meal plans to buy meals for upperclassmen, but that arose because the school required all freshmen to buy the most expensive meal plan, which came with something like eight guest meals per week, and which would be wasted if you didn’t use all of them every week. There arguably was harm done there, but it was done by the school (forcing the freshmen to buy the expensive plan), and not made any worse by the band tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/38 "2018-08-10T14:25:17Z")
I don’t think I’d want to belong to a group that wanted me to do disagreeable things in order to be part of it. That seems like a waste of everyone’s time and a curious way to engender inclusion but, tbh, I’ve never been much for joining groups in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/39 "2018-08-10T14:35:31Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m having definitional issues here - if the activity is harmless, is it “hazing”? A good question; is there a difference between initiation and hazing for example. Our high school marching band had a tradition of having freshmen and first-times being dressed up/covered in shaving cream and silly-string and paraded after our first field drill. There really wasn’t that much in the way of humiliation or harm and to the best of my knowledge no-one ever objected. And the teacher/director made darn sure that that was as far as it went; God help the upperclassman who picked on anyone in any other way or at any other time because they were not going to find any mercy anywhere else. That example I wouldn’t call “hazing” although a viewer unfamiliar with the tradition probably could. Hazing, like pornography, may be partly in the eyes of the viewer. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/40 "2018-08-10T17:10:24Z")
I’m sort of seeing this break down into three subcategories, in my mind: 1. Grunt work. Sometimes tasks need to be done, and it’s stated that the lowest-seniority members have to do them, because ‘tradition’. This is arguably good all around, since a) the tasks needed to get done anyway, b) the senior people will be happy to get out of them, and c) it allows the juniors to feel they’re earning their way into the group. Of course this presumes the jobs aren’t makework or made artificially difficult, which shades into my third subcategory here. 2. Jokes about ignorance. These would be the jokes where you send people after left handed spanners and such, the idea being that you only fell for the joke because you were an outsider, and now that everyone had their laughs you won’t fall for it again and are thus more of an insider. These would generally be ‘good clean fun’, albeit something of a waste of time. This is of course presuming that the tasks given aren’t too arduous or humiliating, which again would shade into… 3. Abuse and humiliation. These are things you go into knowing full well they’re dumb, humiliating, and/or dangerous, because the group pressures or requires you to. The idea is that no sane outsider would do this crap which means that you must be an insider because you did, with a dash of sunk cost fallacy since now that you went through it you paid for your place and thus are invested in the group. Personally I oppose all this sort of stuff on principle even when it’s ‘harmless fun’, and it’s not hard to see how it could become extremely problematic in multiple ways in a hurry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362.md?page=3)