# What's your opinion on hazing? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 9, 2018, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362 "2018-08-09T19:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/41 "2018-08-10T17:33:57Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m sort of seeing this break down into three subcategories, in my mind: > > 1. Grunt work. Sometimes tasks need to be done, and it’s stated that the lowest-seniority members have to do them, because ‘tradition’. This is arguably good all around, since a) the tasks needed to get done anyway, b) the senior people will be happy to get out of them, and c) it allows the juniors to feel they’re earning their way into the group. Of course this presumes the jobs aren’t makework or made artificially difficult, which shades into my third subcategory here. I think it’s a bad idea all around. When I’ve been in charge of newcomers to anything, I help with the work that’s considered the worst to foster a sense that we’re all in it together. And I think the source is the, in my view, corrosive attitude that “I had to do it so they should have to do it too.” ---
**Author:** ![ThisSpaceForRent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thisspaceforrent/32/345_2.png) [@ThisSpaceForRent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisSpaceForRent)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/42 "2018-08-10T17:58:53Z")
I went through Fraternity HELL WEEK in late 78…boot Camp (USN in 81) and became a ShellBack (crossed equator) in 83. By far Hell week was the most grueling and physically taxing. I garuntee I did more setups and push-up in that week than I did in the other two events combined. And that does not include the other gross, degrading, mind-fucking and humiliating things the actives did to us “pledges”. At no time did i feel my life was in danger. YITB, tsfr ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/43 "2018-08-10T18:02:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There are non-malicious ways to get the same benefit. For instance, when I was in marching band in college, the freshmen had to do things like load and unload all the instruments, and clean out the bus whenever we traveled somewhere. Nobody wanted to do these things, but they were things that genuinely needed to be done: It was just a question of by whom. By shifting them onto the freshmen, we got them done while also instilling that sense of “buy-in” and “paying one’s dues”. > > There was also a tradition of freshmen using the “guest meals” on their meal plans to buy meals for upperclassmen, but that arose because the school required all freshmen to buy the most expensive meal plan, which came with something like eight guest meals per week, and which would be wasted if you didn’t use all of them every week. There arguably was harm done there, but it was done by the school (forcing the freshmen to buy the expensive plan), and not made any worse by the band tradition. Nope, that’s still malicious. Quite notably so. Why on Earth would you sort people into “lesser” and “greater” people so that the lesser had to serve the greater??? That is flat out mean. As to the meals: What makes you think they would go to waste??? The frosh could just as easily give the extra meals to other people, e.g., people who aren’t mean and harassing them. “Justifications” for such hazing are always easy to refute. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/44 "2018-08-10T18:55:56Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > A good question; is there a difference between initiation and hazing for example. Our high school marching band had a tradition of having freshmen and first-times being dressed up/covered in shaving cream and silly-string and paraded after our first field drill. There really wasn’t that much in the way of humiliation or harm and to the best of my knowledge no-one ever objected. That sounds a lot wimpier than the Ohio State marching band, which became well known a few years ago for more than its public performances. From a N.Y. Times article in 2014: _“Ohio State University fired the director of its renowned marching band…and released a report describing a culture of harassment and alcohol abuse in which students were told to mimic sex acts, march down the aisle of a bus while others tried to pull their clothes off, and march on the football field in their underwear.”_ One of the cute examples involved a girl who was told to simulate a sex act on her brother. All in good fun, part of the culture, no evidence they objected. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/45 "2018-08-10T18:59:34Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > no evidence they objected. Peer pressure / Stockholm Syndrome is a magical thing. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/46 "2018-08-10T19:02:05Z")
For an even worse example of marching band hazing, [the ritual onboard a bus that resulted in the death of a drum major at Florida A&M University](https://abcnews.go.com/US/hazing-suspected-drum-majors-death-florida-university/story?id=15014294). ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/21906_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/47 "2018-08-10T19:06:47Z")
I’m OK with silliness, but I have no use for vicious humiliation, degradation, or physical trauma. You want to make the n00bs on the team wear fairy wings and skip across campus - have a ball. You want to treat them like subhumans and force them to eat disgusting stuff - nope. The thing about hazing seems to be that many who’ve gone thru it seem to think they need to top what they endured with the next group, and that’s where it gets dangerous, if not downright illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/48 "2018-08-10T20:50:09Z")
Counter hazing would be fun. Like, you pretend to die during the event and scare the willies out of the perpetrators. Big laughs all around. Not a big fan of hazing, myself. But then, any time I’ve been a member of something, membership was a necessary evil to get at what I was really after. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/49 "2018-08-10T20:54:42Z")
> [@FairyChatMom](#): > > The thing about hazing seems to be that many who’ve gone thru it seem to think they need to top what they endured with the next group, and that’s where it gets dangerous, if not downright illegal. I would add that the leaders of the hazing are frequently college age, which studies have shown lack developed judgement. Regarding workplace models of hazing, would we include the models in use in medical and law careers, where new hires are expected to put in ungodly hours, because that is “the way it is done”? While there will always be those that argue strenuously that there are very legitimate business reasons for this, it sure seems like those arguments are just self justification for hazing the newbies. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/50 "2018-08-11T00:15:53Z")
More [del]hazing[/del] (excuse me, [team culture-building](http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/24342005/maryland-terrapins-football-culture-toxic-coach-dj-durkin)). > [@Icarus](#): > > Regarding workplace models of hazing, would we include the models in use in medical and law careers, where new hires are expected to put in ungodly hours, because that is “the way it is done”? While there will always be those that argue strenuously that there are very legitimate business reasons for this, it sure seems like those arguments are just self justification for hazing the newbies. A justification heard for the extremely long hours and lack of sleep encountered by some residents (in surgery, for example) is that otherwise they won’t see enough cases to ensure proper training, or that ending a shift “prematurely” will place patients at risk by substituting another trainee physician who isn’t as famliar with their problem(s). An answer to the first justification is that instead of cramming training into a limited period, you make it as long as necessary; as for the second, improved patient handoffs between doctors are a better idea than keeping someone on the job for an overly long time. I’ve long suspected that part of the pressure to continue long hours for residents comes from established docs who 1) genuinely think it made them better prepared physicians, 2) resent the idea that others won’t go through the grueling schedule they were compelled to, and 3) fewer trainees on the job means physicians in practice might have to take up some of the slack, meaning longer hours for _them_. I remember reading a semi-autobiographical book written by a surgeon a few years ago, who advanced the argument that extremely long hours toughened and better prepared him for emergencies and working when exhausted. He also conceded that while he was learning during residency, patient care may have suffered. So I suppose the best thing is to hope you get the seasoned attending when a crisis hits, not the fogged-out zombie resident who’s in the act of being “toughened up”. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/51 "2018-08-11T01:58:12Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > I would add that the leaders of the hazing are frequently college age, which studies have shown lack developed judgement. > > Regarding workplace models of hazing, would we include the models in use in medical and law careers, where new hires are expected to put in ungodly hours, because that is “the way it is done”? While there will always be those that argue strenuously that there are very legitimate business reasons for this, it sure seems like those arguments are just self justification for hazing the newbies. I think they are just self justification. Some sorts of stress are unavoidable. Others are just people in power being horrible because they can get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/52 "2018-08-11T02:47:49Z")
For those against hazing, I’m curious what you think of the case of Oliver Smoot. In 1958, a group of pledges to an MIT fraternity were given the task of measuring a bridge across the Charles River (leading directly to the MIT campus) using Smoot as the unit of measure. The task has become the stuff of legend; the markings on the bridge are repainted every year and Google recognizes the Smoot as a unit of length. The task was rather difficult and silly, but not harmful. ---
**Author:** ![a\_dudes\_thought\_s](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@a\_dudes\_thought\_s](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/a_dudes_thought_s)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/53 "2018-08-11T02:55:35Z")
Hazing is demonic imo and there is no real justification for it other than some people being ignorant and demonic. I worked at a job with that hazing crap and I told those dudes to get lost. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/54 "2018-08-11T03:47:00Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I think hazing is evil when it crosses the line into pain or humiliation. I’ve seen examples[sup]\*[/sup] of it that I was happy to miss out on although they were essentially harmless. > > The ship that I sailed on several years ago still does a line-crossing ceremony when they cross the equator. They’re a bit secretive about the details, but I get the impression it’s rather like an amateur talent show for the first-time crossers. I don’t think they’d take it too far. > > - Well, one example, at a curling tournament. The first year I played in it, I was just too exhausted to stick around for the event that turned into the hazing. The second time, I saw it coming before it happened. Bit of a hijack, but my father served in the Navy in the lae 40s/early 50s, and he had something in his papers that indicated some sort of “ceremony” had taken place when the ship went 'round the Cape, I think. He NEVER talked about his Navy days, and so I have wondered for years what that ceremony might have been. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/55 "2018-08-11T04:25:16Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > And here’s an interesting data point, which surprised me: > > The frats known for the most difficult, and even brutal, hazing were the most popular ones…They had huge numbers of new recruits hoping to allowed to pledge. > > The frats known for minor hazing were the least popular ones, and had trouble filling their new pledge class every year. > in advance that they would be forced to go through a lot of hazing. > They seemed to enjoy it. Why does that surprise you? It’s a vehicle for artificial demand inflation. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Artificial demand constitutes demand for something that, in the absence of exposure to the vehicle of creating demand, would not exist. Difficult hazing, like highly selective recruiting, is one way to create a higher demand for something that otherwise has little utility. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/56 "2018-08-11T04:40:40Z")
I oppose hazing for much more fundamental reasons. We don’t need more mechanisms to artificially boost tribalism; we need mechanisms to _reduce_ it. Yes, team cohesion is important, but in my view that’s orthogonal to tribalism. You learn to work with your teammates by understanding their individual nature and everyone’s role, not by finding ways to divide people into an in-group and out-group. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/57 "2018-08-11T07:25:15Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > That sounds a lot wimpier than the Ohio State marching band, which became well known a few years ago for more than its public performances. Well this was high school after all. Not being able to afford a college education I attended Pitt mid 70s. Alcohol abuse we had in the band but no real hazing or even really initiation stuff. Maybe it happened but being a little more frightening than the average freshman it just didn’t happen around me. The frats; another story. Some of those got epic. But Greek Life just wasn’t my scene. ---
**Author:** ![Daylate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9dc877/32.png) [@Daylate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daylate)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/58 "2018-08-11T17:03:44Z")
I went to an engineering school back in the 1950’s, back in the day that there was a lot of hazing (paddling, etc.) going on in the fraternities. However, my pledge class was mostly made up of WWII veterans - I guarantee you that whatever hazing was done to that class was very mild. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/59 "2018-08-12T12:44:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **ftg** : > > As to the meals: What makes you think they would go to waste??? The frosh could just as easily give the extra meals to other people, e.g., people who aren’t mean and harassing them. I probably didn’t explain it well. If someone wanted to use their guest meals in some other way (for instance, for visiting family, which is what they were supposedly intended for), that was fine. And it was never a matter of an upperclassman saying “Hey, you, Joe, you’re paying for my supper today”. It was more that a group of friends were all entering the cafeteria at the same time because, being friends, they were eating together, and one of the upperclassmen would say “Hey, does anyone have any guest meals on their account?”, and invariably one of the freshmen would, because they had way more than they’d normally be able to use, and so someone would volunteer. And it’s not really dividing the world into two kinds of people, because the freshmen of today are the same people who will be the upperclassmen next year. And anyone who did anything to deliberately make the scutwork harder for the freshmen would have been told by their peers that that wasn’t cool, and probably made to fix it themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Panther\_Modern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac8455/32.png) [@Panther\_Modern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Panther_Modern)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2018, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362/60 "2018-08-12T15:17:46Z")
There was a fraternity at my college that had a house with a big, enclosed courtyard. I was brother in the fraternity next door. Often, when my brothers and I hung out in the back late into the evening, we’d hear bottles breaking in the courtyard next door for hours. The story goes that, during one particularly hard night of hazing, the brothers at said house would throw glass on the courtyard. Then, they’d order the pledges to crawl through the courtyard, picking up pieces of borken glass on their hands and knees. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-opinion-on-hazing/819362.md?page=4)