# What's your "verdict" on Bernhard Goetz? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093 "2005-05-16T17:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/21 "2005-05-18T03:07:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Fourth, in at least one case, he tried to kill one of the guys. You don’t do that in self-defense. That’s not true. The way shooting is taught is “Center Mass” or “Vital Area”. There is no such thing as “shoot-to-wound”. The survivor of a self-defense shooting is lucky, because that is most definitely not the intent of the person doing the defending. If you pull a weapon out in self-defense, the assumption is that the threat is dangerous enough to require deadly force, and therefore the target should be dead. Cold, but true. After all the discussions we’ve had about this here I’m surprised that anybody would pull out the old “shoot-to-wound” canard. A gun is a last resort deadly weapon, and that should ALWAYS be remembered. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/22 "2005-05-18T03:09:12Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > It’s unfortunate that any of the violent criminals that attacked Goetz lived. It’s a plumb shame that he was prosecuted either criminally and civilly. I don’t think it’s a shame at all. I believe that there was another factor involved in the decision to prosecute Goetz- his complete lack of concern for the other passengers on the train. He was very lucky- the train didn’t suddenly stop, no one else stumbled into his line of fire, he didn’t miss, none of the bullets passed through his target and into a bystander. In another situation (say, in an empty alley), the initial shootings might have been justified. But there was no justification for shots once any threat had been eliminated, and there was no justification for endangering the other passengers. Not at the point where Goetz did it- they asked him for money, and that was it. Although they had screwdrivers, Goetz didn’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/23 "2005-05-18T03:14:32Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > That’s not true. The way shooting is taught is “Center Mass” or “Vital Area”. There is no such thing as “shoot-to-wound”. The survivor of a self-defense shooting is lucky, because that is most definitely not the intent of the person doing the defending. > > If you pull a weapon out in self-defense, the assumption is that the threat is dangerous enough to require deadly force, and therefore the target should be dead. Cold, but true. After all the discussions we’ve had about this here I’m surprised that anybody would pull out the old “shoot-to-wound” canard. A gun is a last resort deadly weapon, and that should ALWAYS be remembered. He walked up, stood over one of the young men, commented that “You don’t look so bad, have another” and proceeded to shoot him again causing paralization and brain damage. That is not a self-defense shooting and he should have gone to jail for it. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/24 "2005-05-18T03:21:59Z")
> [@treis](#): > > He walked up, stood over one of the young men, commented that “You don’t look so bad, have another” and proceeded to shoot him again causing paralization and brain damage. That is not a self-defense shooting and he should have gone to jail for it. I agree with that, but the contention made by **monstro** is that shooting in self-defense should not result in death, and I disagreed. Survival of the person shot is entrely coincidental. A follow-up shooting is no longer self-defense unless that person has a weapon and is bringing it to bear on you. What Goetz did after the initial shooting was indeed criminal. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/25 "2005-05-18T03:23:17Z")
I think thats what \*\* monstro \*\* meant ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/26 "2005-05-18T03:45:00Z")
All I can add to the discussion–and I’m going to be really, really, REALLY frank here–was the atmosphere here in NY when this happened. Crime was constant, random, and horribly bad. The subway was filthy and dangerous, with graffiti everywhere that came off on your clothes and was not pretty and artistic at all, dead-eyed young people with loud radios, and usually 2-3 homeless people sprawled at the end of the car. You did not go into most of the parks (except Central; Bryant, Madison, Washington, Union–all were no-go zones. And if you were a gril, you also stayed across the street so you would not get dragged in). You took off all your jewelry before going on the subway or for long walks. You scattered your money about your person except for the 2-5 dollars of mugging money you kept handy, in the hopes the mugger would accept it and go away. Mothers in bad neighborhoods put their children to sleep in bathtubs because stray bullets would not find them there. Times Square was also a no-go zone; as a girl men would routinely expose themselves to you as you walked–quickly, without stopping, head down, coat closed, purse clasped in both arms–to the theater or a restaurant. Basically, growing up in the 70s and 80s, I was taught that it was a great city but that the criminals were everywhere, pervasive, and that they would always be there, and that every man was a suspect. And sadly, men of color were particularly suspect, and they knew it, and all too many of them, feeling they had nothing to lose or prove, acted it. Loud radios (no earphones back then), loud clothes, loud talking, cursing in front of children and old ladies, lots of attitude, towards everybody, black people, Latino people, white people. I can’t totally blame them, they were so poor and so lost. Nice white New Yorkers like me were told to pity them since they had such bleak lives and no prospects–but, make sure your necklaces are tucked in and your rings off anyway, honey. And the point was, this was _normal_. These guys were in control. Regular people, of all classes and colors, were told not to fight back, not to make eye contact, keep their heads down, and hope to God that these kids weren’t going to get them this time. And surely, life would never get better. It had gotten worse for years and would always keep getting worse, especially for those of us in the outer boros with long long subway rides and nowhere to escape to. (Thank God we were all so wrong!) One of those “kids” on the subway had raped a neighbor girl so badly she needed stitches. The screwdrivers were sharpened as weapons. Goetz may not have known this, but these were the sort of people they were. Guys like this spread fear not by waving weapons around, necessarily, but by looming, staring, and making threats that may not sound like threats when you read them on a computer screen in one’s house, but were on a par with a stranger following you out of a club, cornering you in an alley, and leering “Hey baby, gimme a kiss.” Cute when your boyfriend says it at the prom, but… So when the news broke about what Goetz had done, THAT’S why he became everybody’s hero for a while. Finally, someone had said NO. Not me, not this time, not here. Violence had finally been dealt back out by a mousy little blond guy who was the stereotypical victim. The hunters had finally been taken down. Now, that changed fairly rapidly IIRC (I was a teenager)–first the racial angle made people uncomfortable, then the paralysis of the unlucky teen, then the fact of the second shot fired into him, then that there were other people nearby, then the fact that Goetz fled…He has a mixed record now, and your perspective will depend on your race, age, sex, and record of being victimized during the bad times. But the OP asked why people at the time initially thought he was a hero, and here’s my perspective. Sorry to be so blunt, but it was a blunt time, with nerves frayed and snarling frustration under everybody’s surface. Goetz’ erupted in a spectacular way and, for a moment, he was a proxy for everyone elses. He was our sheriff. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/27 "2005-05-18T04:25:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The guy was not an angel here. Perhaps not the devil, but he deserved to be held accountable for his actions. But the people that he shot were clearly devils who deserved to be shot. And except for the re-shooting of the one lowlife, violent thug, the other shootings were completely just. People everyday don’t get charged for crimes committed against scumbags or are at least prosecuted for lesser offences. Someone locally beat the living shit of an adult that he found kissing his junior high aged daughter. No charges filed. Another local case involved someone shooting a thief in the legs while he was running away. Instead of felony charges, he was charged with simple misdemeanor battery. I am saying that Goetz similar consideration. Not that I would expect common sense justice to have been applied in NYC then or now. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/28 "2005-05-18T04:28:05Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > I am saying that Goetz similar consideration. Goetz deserved :smack: ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/29 "2005-05-18T04:37:15Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > But the people that he shot were clearly devils who deserved to be shot. And except for the re-shooting of the one lowlife, violent thug, the other shootings were completely just. > > People everyday don’t get charged for crimes committed against scumbags or are at least prosecuted for lesser offences. Someone locally beat the living shit of an adult that he found kissing his junior high aged daughter. No charges filed. Another local case involved someone shooting a thief in the legs while he was running away. Instead of felony charges, he was charged with simple misdemeanor battery. I am saying that Goetz similar consideration. Not that I would expect common sense justice to have been applied in NYC then or now. On what basis do you think Goetz judged these youths to be scumbags deserving of being shot? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/30 "2005-05-18T07:13:07Z")
Thanks **Mehitabel**. That does add a lot of perspective. I’ve never even been to NYC other than to change planes, but my understanding is that crime in the streets was Guiliani’s equivalent of Mussolini making the trains run on time. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/31 "2005-05-18T13:34:10Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > First off, he fired a gun in a public place, where innocent bystanders were nearby. He put all of those people in more danger than the thugs did. This assumes that he should have submitted to being robbed, or perhaps worse. IIRC, the first police officer on the scene reported that he asked one of the people Goetz shot, “What happened?” The response was, “We were trying to rob this white guy, and he shot us.” So I don’t believe this could be characterized as simple panhandling., as some seem to be suggesting. > [@monstro](#): > > Secondly, he was carrying an illegal weapon. This is the part of the convictions that makes the least sense to me. He was, IIRC, acquitted of criminal responsibility for shooting the four. But he was convicted of illegally possessing a firearm. In other words, he was justified in shooting them, but should not have been allowed to own the means to do so. Goetz applied for a carry permit after having been mugged earlier, and it was denied. It seems his judgement as to whether or not he needed to carry was better than that of the city of New York. > [@monstro](#): > > Thirdly, he fled the scene of the crime. If he hadn’t done anything wrong, why run away like a coward? Because even if the shootings were justified, he made an accurate judgement that he was going to be prosecuted. Unlike the four guys he shot, he was white, he had a job, he was invested in the system and had something to lose. What the hell did the four robbers care about another conviction? The only one of the four who was not subsequently convicted of unrelated crimes against the public was the paralyzed one, whose career in crime seems to have been brought to a halt by the shooting. _Sic transit gloria mundi_. Goetz was different. He had some money. And, as I mentioned, he was white and the four criminals were black, and therefore every race pimp in New York could call for his head for shooting the poor, disadvantaged youths (who all had long criminal records) who were minding their own business on the subway (on their way to rob vending machines) who innocently approached (in order to rob) the evil, nasty, hateful, racist white guy (who happened to be better armed than they were. Oops.) Turning himself in later was, in my opinion, his major mistake. If it had been me, I would have shot the four (but NOT gone back to shoot anyone again), left the subway immediately, discarded the weapon someplace, and never said a word about it to anyone, ever. > [@monstro](#): > > Fourth, in at least one case, he tried to kill one of the guys. You don’t do that in self-defense. Can’t argue with this. The final shot was, in my opinion, unjustified. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/32 "2005-05-18T14:19:23Z")
As I said, I’m not sure what I would have done if someone had thrown me a gun. My actions would probably have been a compromise between **Shodan** ’s, and pulling out the gun and making it clear that I was _very_ willing to use it. Maybe even firing a shot in the roof of the subway car. This would have showed more concern for the others in the car. Disadvantage: brandishing a firearm can be a good way to get yourself killed, especially if you’re outnumbered. However, I have indeed seen acts of violence defused when a prospective victim pulled out a rod (I’m from West Virginia). ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/33 "2005-05-18T14:19:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Turning himself in later was, in my opinion, his major mistake. If it had been me, I would have shot the four (but NOT gone back to shoot anyone again), left the subway immediately, discarded the weapon someplace, and never said a word about it to anyone, ever. So much for respect for the law. Of what use are laws if people only respect the ones they agree with? ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/34 "2005-05-18T14:25:04Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > In practice, however, someone who is feeling threatened is not going to _objectively_ look at the facts. More than likely their only thought is “how do I get out of this alive?” Hmm. That sounds a lot like a threat to me, **zev**. So now I’m justified in blowing you away. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/35 "2005-05-18T14:38:28Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > So much for respect for the law. Of what use are laws if people only respect the ones they agree with? Very little use. So when four people fail to respect the laws against shakedowns, the social contract tends to break down. It seems part of the present discussion is, “what do we do then?” It seems that Goetz did something that was at least not criminally liable, although the last “You don’t look so bad” shot had civil liabilities. And the only law he failed to respect seems to have been the concealed carry law, which conviction, as I said, makes no sense to me. “It’s legal to do this, but illegal to be able to do this” seems a mixed message at best. But you are correct. If those involved had respected and obeyed the laws, this would never have happened. Especially the ones who initiated the incident. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/36 "2005-05-18T14:47:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It seems that Goetz did something that was at least not criminally liable, although the last “You don’t look so bad” shot had civil liabilities. And the only law he failed to respect seems to have been the concealed carry law, which conviction, as I said, makes no sense to me. “It’s legal to do this, but illegal to be able to do this” seems a mixed message at best. How is standing over a helpless person and firing a bullet into their spine not attempted murder? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/37 "2005-05-18T14:54:44Z")
> [@treis](#): > > How is standing over a helpless person and firing a bullet into their spine not attempted murder? You’d have to ask the jury that, I suppose. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/38 "2005-05-18T14:54:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If those involved had respected and obeyed the laws, this would never have happened. Especially the ones who initiated the incident. So let’s be clear on this subject. You believe Goetz was justified in breaking the law (conceal & carry) because others broke the law? Does this apply to everyone who is the victim of a criminal act, and wants to lash out at the perpetrator? This approach might save some money on law enforcement and incarceration, but it does little to promote the public peace. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/39 "2005-05-18T15:02:48Z")
**Fear Itself,** you’re looking at this as pure abstract theory, outside of the social and mental and physical mileau in which it happened. I’ve tried to show that the times made that virtually impossible. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/40 "2005-05-18T15:03:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You’d have to ask the jury that, I suppose. > > Regards, > Shodan Then you shouldn’t have said: > [@Shodan](#): > > And the only law he failed to respect seems to have been the concealed carry law, which conviction, as I said, makes no sense to me. It sure as shit seems to me he failed to respect the law against murder perhaps you meant the only law he was found guilty of breaking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093.md?page=3)