# What's your "verdict" on Bernhard Goetz? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093 "2005-05-16T17:21:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/81 "2005-05-20T06:22:16Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Reading media reports about Goetz and concluding the system is broken is like reading comic books and concluding the laws of physics are flawed. Actually, I was thinking about what the various New Yorkers have said in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/82 "2005-05-20T06:38:08Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Actually, I was thinking about what the various New Yorkers have said in this thread. Well, none of them are dead, and they continued to choose to live in New York, so something just have been working. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/83 "2005-05-20T11:38:09Z")
Actually, I left in the mid-eighties and lived in Boston until 2001, FWIW. Every time I came back to visit NY got better and better. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/84 "2005-05-20T13:12:30Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > But I don’t think those enforcing the law had failed, and those who say otherwise are disparaging many brave, underpaid and overworked police officers who daily put their lives on the line to provide the rest of us safety. I think the thousands of New Yorkers murdered in the 80’s and their families would probably disagree with you here. We’ll also probably want to add on those victimized by muggers, burglars, etc. The only resort many of them had during this time was to defend themselves. Unfortunately, New York’s laws and climate made that very difficult. So these people were effectively prevented from fighting back and the police did little about catching those who perpetrated the crime. Great system. The police force is not responsible for preventing crime. They are responsible for catching those who do these crimes and put them away. During the 80’s in New York, however, they didn’t seem to do this all that well. Ask anyone who lived in NY in the 80’s (my wife, for instance), and he or she will tell you what a cesspool it was. Thank God Giuliani had the balls to stand up to the do-gooders and actually reform things there so the police department could do its job. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/85 "2005-05-20T19:32:39Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Then you appeal to a higher authority. That’s why we have a system of checks and balances. But I don’t think those enforcing the law had failed, and those who say otherwise are disparaging many brave, underpaid and overworked police officers who daily put their lives on the line to provide the rest of us safety. If you think there should have been more cops on the street, then you should vote for someone who will raise your taxes to fund them. > > At the same time, factor into your thinking how we learn about stories like Goetz from a media that has a vested interest in convincing us that there is something desperately wrong with the system. News organizations write the stories that sell best, not the stories which are most relevant. How many stories have you read about the muggings the police _prevented_ the day Goetz pulled his gun? I certainly haven’t seen any. Reading media reports about Goetz and concluding the system is broken is like reading comic books and concluding the laws of physics are flawed. Actually, we do occassionally get stories about prevented crimes. You might not get a lot of them because, except for the dumbest of criminals, the presence of a uniformed officer is a deterent. I, personally, am not saying the system was broken. It was in need of lots of improvement, which it got. Also, NYC officers, generally speaking, are not underpaid (unless you ask them, but most people, not matter their job, think the same). Overworked, maybe. Dangerous job, yes. And I can just see the mayor running on the platform “I’ll raise your taxes to put more police on the streets”. I see him on the street corner the first Wednesday in November asking for handouts. > [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Part of the basic concept underlying civilization is that we don’t go around committing violents acts on one another. When such things occur, we don’t respond violently, we instead turn to the legal or judicial systems to act on our behalf in a fair and equitable manner. Responding to violence with violence is what cavemen do, not civilized people. No, it is what _living_ people do. Possibly Goetz acted prematurely (before a weapon was brandished), but even in our cleaner, nicer NY, you still read about the occassional person stabbed or shot, maybe killed, on a subway in a robbery. The way I read your statement, if someone is stabbing me, I shouldn’t fight back, but wait until he is finished, ask for his name and address, and then call 911. Believe it or not, civilized people can respond to violence with violence. Peace officers can’t be on every street corner, in every apartment building and on every subway. Avoidance is preferable, yes. Yet, when and if confronted, and especially if assaulted, standing up for oneself is a better deterent than just accepting a beating/stabbing/shooting. Having a legal and judicial system to handle criminals only works if you live. Now if you meant responding to violence by coming back two hours later with a baseball bat or a gun, then I’ll agree with you. But when you are getting attacked, rolling into a little ball and hoping they go away is not necessarily the best idea. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/86 "2005-05-20T19:50:47Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Well, none of them are dead, and they continued to choose to live in New York, so something just have been working. “You’re not dead so quit your bitching” isn’t exactly the gold standard I’d use in my determination of how crime ridden New York was in the 70’s and 80’s. Yes people continued to live there because for some it was their home and for others moving wasn’t a realistic option. I’m sure you’re aware that moving can be quite costly and that not everyone can afford it? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/87 "2005-05-21T00:26:39Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Actually, we do occassionally get stories about prevented crimes. You might not get a lot of them because, except for the dumbest of criminals, the presence of a uniformed officer is a deterent. I, personally, am not saying the system was broken. It was in need of lots of improvement, which it got. I agree with you. > [@D\_Odds](#): > > Also, NYC officers, generally speaking, are not underpaid (unless you ask them, but most people, not matter their job, think the same). Overworked, maybe. Dangerous job, yes. And I can just see the mayor running on the platform “I’ll raise your taxes to put more police on the streets”. I see him on the street corner the first Wednesday in November asking for handouts. Off topic, but it’s been my observation that those who clamor for more and better police protection are usually the same who demand lower taxes. I brought this up to point out the flaw in that approach. I think Mayor Guliani also proved that more police and better support for police is the best way to combat crime. > [@D\_Odds](#): > > No, it is what _living_ people do. Possibly Goetz acted prematurely (before a weapon was brandished), but even in our cleaner, nicer NY, you still read about the occassional person stabbed or shot, maybe killed, on a subway in a robbery. The way I read your statement, if someone is stabbing me, I shouldn’t fight back, but wait until he is finished, ask for his name and address, and then call 911. Believe it or not, civilized people can respond to violence with violence. Peace officers can’t be on every street corner, in every apartment building and on every subway. Avoidance is preferable, yes. Yet, when and if confronted, and especially if assaulted, standing up for oneself is a better deterent than just accepting a beating/stabbing/shooting. Having a legal and judicial system to handle criminals only works if you live. > > Now if you meant responding to violence by coming back two hours later with a baseball bat or a gun, then I’ll agree with you. But when you are getting attacked, rolling into a little ball and hoping they go away is not necessarily the best idea. You’re missing my point. As I’ve said, of course Goetz has a right to defend himself, as does everyone. If I were getting stabbed I would indeed fight back. What I object to is the lionization of Goetz. People wanting to emulate him, holding him up as an example we should aspire to, wishing there were more like him, etc… I also object to the assertion that Goetz had no choice but to carry an illegal gun and shoot those kids. Of course he had a choice, he had several choices that would have prevented him from entering into the situation in the first place. And what he did, while possibly being necessary, wasn’t something to celebrate. Several people on this very board have said that those kids “deserved” to get shot. Isn’t there an implication that we all should carry guns and shoot people we deem to “deserve” it? Is that the example we want set by this incident? Is that the culture we want to live in? I certainly don’t. Here’s what I would say instead: Goetz was the unfortunate participant in an event that would have been better if avoided. He’s not a hero, a champion or anything else. Instead of emulating him, we should try to avoid similar situations when possible. If such situations are unavoidable, then we do what we must to survive. Make sense? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/88 "2005-05-21T02:08:07Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > What I object to is the lionization of Goetz. People wanting to emulate him, holding him up as an example we should aspire to, wishing there were more like him, etc… That’s because most people just hear about an attempted mugging and someone defending himself. While I might not want more people like Goetz I would love it if more people could turn the tables on their attackers. > [@](#): > > I also object to the assertion that Goetz had no choice but to carry an illegal gun and shoot those kids. Of course he had a choice, he had several choices that would have prevented him from entering into the situation in the first place. I don’t recall you offering any realistic alternatives. Taking a cab everywhere, travelling with friends or Guardian Angels at all times, or moving aren’t exactly what I’d call viable solutions. > [@](#): > > Several people on this very board have said that those kids “deserved” to get shot. Isn’t there an implication that we all should carry guns and shoot people we deem to “deserve” it? Is that the example we want set by this incident? Is that the culture we want to live in? I certainly don’t. Actually I think the implication is that those attempting to rob someone deserve to get shot. That’s something I can certainly agree with. > [@](#): > > Instead of emulating him, we should try to avoid similar situations when possible. If such situations are unavoidable, then we do what we must to survive. Make sense? Sure, I’d rather avoid the conditions that make violence more likely. On the other hand if I ever find myself surrounded by thugs asking for a “loan” then emulating Goetz might not be such a bad idea. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/89 "2005-05-21T02:33:08Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > Several people on this very board have said that those kids “deserved” to get shot. And they’re saying it without the quotes, too. > [@](#): > > Isn’t there an implication that we all should carry guns and shoot people we deem to “deserve” it? No, but there _is_ an implication that if you have a gun and you feel threatened, your immediate personal defense takes priority over vague social imperatives. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/90 "2005-05-21T13:53:29Z")
I lived in Bergen County, NJ at the time of this incident, and I can confirm (as others have) that Mehitabel’s description of NYC at that time is an accurate portrayal, as is the characterization of Goetz as an icon, of sorts. I find many good abstract arguments here, particularly from Leviosauraus. I understand and accept the terms “morally correct” and “morally necessary”, and agree (as I feel most here do) that violence is a LAST resort action. I have a difference, tho, with what other actions are acceptable. It is unacceptable to live in fear. I do not lionize Goetz. But I will argue that many of the options you describe for him are unacceptable as they necessarily entail living in fear. Fear for your life, and fear that you are powerless to help yourself; either way it is an unacceptable way to live. All options that encompass fear as a motivating force should be rejected as unhealthy in both the short and long term. I do not carry, nor own, a gun although I live in a state that recognizes my right to do so. I do, however, have some basic knowledge of fisticuffs and self-defense. I can and will defend myself and others from threats and harm to the best of my ability, in an attempt to END the threat, so that we can all go back to being nice to one another (as best we can, anyway). But it is a terrible, unacceptable, inhumane thing for a creature to live in fear, and one way to create a culture without fear is to create a society of people who can fend for themselves, should the need arise. Of course, I think guns are a pussy way to kill people 😛 I think we should all carry swords. Bo ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093/91 "2005-05-23T01:11:33Z")
> [@Leviosaurus](#): > > I also object to the assertion that Goetz had no choice but to carry an illegal gun and shoot those kids. Of course he had a choice, he had several choices that would have prevented him from entering into the situation in the first place. He was confronted by four thugs wielding weapons and demanding his money. As I see it, he had three choices: 1) give them his money, 2) don’t give them his money and suffer bodily harm or death, or 3) fight back. The first option is rewarding the evil behavior of others. The second choice is obviously unwise. The third choice is the moral one to make. > [@](#): > > Several people on this very board have said that those kids “deserved” to get shot. Isn’t there an implication that we all should carry guns and shoot people we deem to “deserve” it? It’s not that we randomly deem them “deserving” of being shot. Their actions showed that they were willing to use violence against someone to illegally obtain his money. That choice, made by them, justifies using force against them. If someone is willing to use violence to commit a crime, then they deserve to have violence used against them to prevent that crime. > [@](#): > > Is that the culture we want to live in? I certainly don’t. You prefer living in a culture where criminals are free to use violence against innocent citizens? Personally I wish more people would use violence in defending themselves against thugs who victimize them. The world would be a better place if more muggers were greeted with bullets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-your-verdict-on-bernhard-goetz/304093.md?page=4)