# Wheel of Time 11: Knife of Dreams (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 13, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027 "2005-10-13T04:23:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/21 "2005-10-18T16:07:38Z")
I bought this book last tuesday, but just havent been able to muster up the intrest to read it. I have skimmed thru the last 3 novels, just hoping something would happen. Looks like I will be reading all night tonite tho! woot! 'bout time ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/22 "2005-10-18T19:50:52Z")
> [@Draelin](#): > > I’ve got my money on Danelle, but who the hell cares anymore? Ugh. And which one is Danelle? > [@Draelin](#): > > It was in the KoD Forsaken chapter, right at the beginning. 🙂 I almost missed it, myself. Well, sure, but that’s it. No reason to believe that it wasn’t actually Sammael and even if one insists on that (why hasn’t the DO recycled Sammael - there was no Balefire in his death) absolutely the only thing we know is that it’s not…actually, we know absolutely nothing. And when there’s now several thousand people running around who are capable of using illusions… And then another one for you…Semirhage massacred the Seanchan royal court because…? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Draelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@Draelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Draelin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/23 "2005-10-18T20:00:03Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Ugh. And which one is Danelle? She’s a Brown who has been around for no other reason than to make her the obvious choice for Mesaana. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Well, sure, but that’s it. No reason to believe that it wasn’t actually Sammael and even if one insists on that (why hasn’t the DO recycled Sammael - there was no Balefire in his death) absolutely the only thing we know is that it’s not…actually, we know absolutely nothing. And when there’s now several thousand people running around who are capable of using illusions… I have no doubt that Sammael is dead, because Jordan’s been so emphatic about it. There are very few people, however, who would dare to impersonate a Forsaken. > [@](#): > > And then another one for you…Semirhage massacred the Seanchan royal court because…? I imagine it’s to cause Seanchan instability, in addition to her probably being relatively certain that if Tuon’s not dead, she soon will be, and she could take the throne herself, either disguised as Tuon or through some other means. Oh, and I’ve been given an idea where Gawyn is–those One-Power-assisted raiders that are attacking Bryne’s army are probably the Younglings. I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/24 "2005-10-18T20:17:58Z")
> [@Draelin](#): > > I imagine it’s to cause Seanchan instability, in addition to her probably being relatively certain that if Tuon’s not dead, she soon will be, and she could take the throne herself, either disguised as Tuon or through some other means. So, basically, so that Mat’s wife could very soon make peace with Rand. Semirhage spends ten frickin books steering the Seanchan and then throws it away for no reason. And then tops it off by doing something insanely idiotic resulting in her capture by Rand and Friends. Other than Rand having (accidentally) swapped the Taint over to Saidar, WTF? Semirhage suffer a stroke recently? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/25 "2005-10-18T22:35:32Z")
Do we know that Semirhage was the one who slaughtered the imperial court? Remember, Seandar is one place where wandering in, firing up the old OP and starting to kick ass would NOT be a very good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Avarie537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/48db29/32.png) [@Avarie537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avarie537)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/26 "2005-10-18T22:50:06Z")
_covering eyes with a blind fold and trying to type_ \*Must … not … read … thread! Getting … book … for … vacation. … Will … return … after … cruise. \* _gasp_ ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/27 "2005-10-18T23:04:58Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Do we know that Semirhage was the one who slaughtered the imperial court? Remember, Seandar is one place where wandering in, firing up the old OP and starting to kick ass would NOT be a very good idea. Do we know that Damane would be allowed to be near the Empress? Anyways, the Foresaken can hide their ability to channel and the glow of Saidar. She could very easily have killed any Damane nearby before they knew what was happening, and then gone through with the massacre. Semirhage’s line about ‘how much blood there is in a human body’ seemed to me to be a pretty obvious “yup, I did it”. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/28 "2005-10-19T05:59:37Z")
Sammael was masquerading as the head honcho of Illian, no? The same guy who resurfaced in this book in the White Tower and had a brief chat with Egwene? So was that the return of Sammy or an imposter or what? I’m so confused. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/29 "2005-10-19T07:02:00Z")
> [@Draelin](#): > > I have no doubt that Sammael is dead, because Jordan’s been so emphatic about it. There are very few people, however, who would dare to impersonate a Forsaken. Only a Forsaken could have done it. The obedience of the Myrrdraal commanded confirmed that it must have been one of the Chosen. ---
**Author:** ![Kaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/fbc32d/32.png) [@Kaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaf)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/30 "2005-10-19T08:00:10Z")
> [@One And Only Wanderers](#): > > Only a Forsaken could have done it. The obedience of the Myrrdraal commanded confirmed that it must have been one of the Chosen. I took the impersonation of Sammael to be another clear sign that Taim has ascended to ‘Forsaken’ status. Moridin has some extra chairs in the first Forsaken POV chapter and then someone who isn’t an original Forsaken is commanding Trollocs. Fairly definitive, by Robert Jordan standards imo, that Taim is not just a Darkfriend, but is a new Forsaken. ---
**Author:** ![Kaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/fbc32d/32.png) [@Kaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaf)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/31 "2005-10-19T08:05:29Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > And then another one for you…Semirhage massacred the Seanchan royal court because…? > > -Joe 1. She’s eeeeeevil and does eeeeevil things. 2. Slaughtering the royal court essentially throws the Seanchan into a civil war thereby nuetralizing the Seanchan forces by turning the Ever Victorious Army against itself. Except of course because we know that Tuon is going ascend the throne and the Seanchan will march lockstep with Rand. Also it, gives R. J. a really good excuse, if he writes an epilogue, to have the Seanchan army leave Randland and go back to settle the civil war caused by the decapitation of its ruling class. ---
**Author:** ![Draelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@Draelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Draelin)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/32 "2005-10-19T13:18:53Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Sammael was masquerading as the head honcho of Illian, no? The same guy who resurfaced in this book in the White Tower and had a brief chat with Egwene? So was that the return of Sammy or an imposter or what? I’m so confused. He wasn’t masquerading as the King, he’d just taken a place on the High Council or whatever it is Illian had, and the King disappeared (kidnapped by Elaida). And as long as whoever ordered the Myrddraal _looked_ like a Forsaken, who’s going to question it? ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/33 "2005-10-19T14:22:57Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Semirhage spends ten frickin books steering the Seanchan and then throws it away for no reason. > > And then tops it off by doing something insanely idiotic resulting in her capture by Rand and Friends. I had the same reaction until i saw the effect her little speech had on Rand and his pals. Sure, I think she wanted to catch him with the a’dam, but a pretty good plan B is to get captured and sow doubt and dissention, isn’t it? _is reminded of Suaron’s ‘capture’ in the second Age and what resulted of his time as a ‘hostage’ in Numenor_ Anyway, one theory my Lady and I have discussed is whether Taim is actually Moridin, assuming he’s an existing character. Otherwise, there’s no reason he couldn’t be a new Forsaken. And here’s to the end of the Elayne story arc! Yay! ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/34 "2005-10-19T15:09:14Z")
My take on the Seanchan/Semirhage situation was that Semirhage offed the Royals back in Seanchanland to have Suroth, her pet darkfriend be empress. Then she would also collar Rand, and thus deliver the Seanchan army and TDR on the side of the Dark One at Tarmon Gai’don. This failed because Tuon didn’t get killed, and because Rand/Lews recognized Semirhage. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/35 "2005-10-19T16:16:48Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > _is reminded of Suaron’s ‘capture’ in the second Age and what resulted of his > time as a ‘hostage’ in Numenor_ Surely you’re not suggesting that RJ has been _cough_ influenced by Tolkein, are you? Because that would just be crazy talk! ---
**Author:** ![Draelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@Draelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Draelin)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/36 "2005-10-19T16:36:25Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > I had the same reaction until i saw the effect her little speech had on Rand and his pals. Sure, I think she wanted to catch him with the a’dam, but a pretty good plan B is to get captured and sow doubt and dissention, isn’t it? The “I’m captured, but he’s _crayzee_” plan? I like it. > [@](#): > > Anyway, one theory my Lady and I have discussed is whether Taim is actually Moridin, assuming he’s an existing character. Otherwise, there’s no reason he couldn’t be a new Forsaken. Was Moridin around when Taim was introduced? I know Ishy was dead by then … I’ve never considered that. But if Taim is Moridin, then he didn’t use Sammael’s face to order anybody around. Since the Fall of Taimandred, I’ve been thinking that Taim’s just plain ol’ Darkfriend Taim, probably soon-to-be-Forsaken Taim. I’m going to continue to say Taim once or twice every sentence, until it loses all meaning. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/37 "2005-10-19T17:36:20Z")
> [@Kaf](#): > > 1. Slaughtering the royal court essentially throws the Seanchan into a civil war thereby nuetralizing the Seanchan forces by turning the Ever Victorious Army against itself. Except of course because we know that Tuon is going ascend the throne and the Seanchan will march lockstep with Rand. Then it’s a fantastically badly thought out idea unless she made sure to take out Tuon first. Note that I say “take out” and not “send yet another keystone cop darkfriend(s) after her”. Seanchan is totally irrelevent in the timeline remaining - except for their forces in Randland. Now, if she’d wiped out the court in Randland… -Joe ---
**Author:** ![fiztig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f19dbf/32.png) [@fiztig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fiztig)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/38 "2005-11-02T12:12:43Z")
Well, one more RJ reader checking in. I only bought the book a few days ago, and whilst I am kind of enjoying it, I haven’t been glued to the pages. At this point, I am finding it quite irksome trying to remember all of these inconsequential characters that keep popping up. I really want to enjoy the final part of the series. I’ve stuck with it from beginning to end, but I am now finding it increasingly difficult to really care much about most of these characters. Beyond the major protaganists I couldn’t really care less. I’d just like to see the finish of the damn story, and I don’t see how RJ will be able to do this in one book unless he:[list=a] [li]writes 1500+ pages[/li][li]uses dot point form, and/or[/li][li]reverts from form and gives little detail beyond the bare bones of the plot[/li][/list] By the lack of interest in this thread, I’d say RJ finally managed to kill off a large number of his fan base, and I’d say the over-use of erroneous characters was a big factor. When I read LOTR for the first time I found the appendix useful, but I didn’t need to use it to try and work out who each character was that popped up in the narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/39 "2005-11-02T14:38:29Z")
I don’t know if interest has waned that badly, or that no one was in a real hurry to pick up the book since we already know that there’s gonna be a long wait until the next one. I agree that this was the best book in quite a while. Things actually started heading towards where you can see it ending. While **Merijeek** seems irritated by much of the book, I can’t say the same. Yeah, we all could go on without all the references to “braid tugging” and how anyone of the opposite sex is a total mystery… Jordan can’t stop it know without changing the feel of the series. I’ve been reading them for a lot of years now, and I will finish, as long as I live long enough. **fiztig** , you mentioned that you didn’t see how this was going to end in one book, has anyone said that there will only be one more? I can see it possibly getting done in two more books, but I’d almost bet on three. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027/40 "2005-11-02T14:44:49Z")
> [@Who\_me?](#): > > **fiztig** , you mentioned that you didn’t see how this was going to end in one book, has anyone said that there will only be one more? I can see it possibly getting done in two more books, but I’d almost bet on three. I could have sworn it was actually supposed to be 13 books, but I seem to recall (recently) seeing that the next book was going to be the ‘conclusion’. Maybe it’ll change, though. GRRM’s series has just expanded, after all. And **W\_m** , I actually (mostly) like this book. My major complaints were due to the fact that RJ spent so much time doing **ABSOLUTELY NOTHING** in Book 10 that he’s now rushing things; Aram’s ‘resolution’ is proof of that. Anyone know where we can see the sales figures of KoD vs. CoT and PoD? -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-11-knife-of-dreams-spoilers/326027.md?page=3)