# Wheel of Time 12 - The Gathering Storm (spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 29, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565 "2009-10-29T04:40:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/21 "2009-10-30T17:16:10Z")
Having run out of books to read, I just started rereading **The Eye of the World** , and noticed a strong parallel between its prologue and the final chapter of TGS. Rand/Lews is driven nearly insane, and realizes what he did/almost did to someone he loves. So he travels to dragonmount and draws in huge quantities of saidin until he/the choden kal explodes. ---
**Author:** ![Draelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@Draelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Draelin)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/22 "2009-10-31T01:15:08Z")
> [@Kylede](#): > > There were some new chapter Icons in this book, the most interesting one was the “spider webs”. I am curious if anyone has scoured those chapters to see if Moghiedien might be in them in disguise. I point this out because in TSR the chapter where we first meet the peddlers (Lanfear and Asmodean in disguise) the chapter icon is the cresent moon with the 5 stars. This is he same icon used for Lanfear in all the previous books (I think it is also the signet Lanfear uses as Selene in TGH). Any thoughts?? I didn’t see them as spiderwebs. I saw them as part of the Pattern, clearly unraveling. I’m still assimilating the last 300 pages, which I tore through from the moment I got home from work until about eight minutes ago, but I’m pretty sure every chapter that started with that icon included a blatant reminder that the Dark One is touching the world. All in all, I _loved_ it. Things happened. That’s the most important thing, of course, but whether it was the pacing or the words, I feel like Sanderson managed to turn out the most readable entire volume since _The Dragon Reborn._ Yes, the Mat scenes were over the top, but really–those of you who’ve been reading the series for over a decade: when’s the last time you actually laughed out loud at a Wheel of Time book? I’ll accept a little buffoonery for the chance to actually be entertained and not treated to a thesis on what color everybody’s embroidery is. My roommate, who read the first ten books, has spent the last three days listening to me gasp, cheer, and generally yell at the book. She might be willing to pick it up again. I keep telling her, it was that awesome. I don’t really mind that some characters were under-represented or not seen at all, because there are just far too many characters to fit them all in one book, not and actually _close_ any of the plotlines. Rand’s return to marginal sanity and the healing of the Tower were important, and I’m okay with not hearing about Lan traveling across the Borderlands if it means there’s room for stuff that I just want wrapped up. I will confess to being a little annoyed that Rand “saw” Perrin standing with Galad and found out that Morgase still lived, and that all happened offscreen, as it were. I’m just hoping that we’ll at least get a recap of it come the next book. It’s almost a shame to see all my years of theorizing come to an end, but I’m glad it’s finally drawing to a close. I’d really been hoping for a face-to-face before Graendal’s death where she admitted to killing Asmodean, but maybe I’ve been wrong all these years. 🙂 I’m _dying_ to find out what Verin wrote to Mat, and I can’t wait to get to the Tower of Ghenjei. For the first time since _Path of Daggers_, I’m not just anxious, but positively _jonesing_ for the next book. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/23 "2009-10-31T19:23:19Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Having run out of books to read, I just started rereading **The Eye of the World** , and noticed a strong parallel between its prologue and the final chapter of TGS. > > Rand/Lews is driven nearly insane, and realizes what he did/almost did to someone he loves. So he travels to dragonmount and draws in huge quantities of saidin until he/the choden kal explodes. The choedan kal didn’t just explode though, it was intentionally destroyed by Rand as he didn’t trust himself with the power. It’s been made pretty clear that when he goes to Shayol Ghul it’s going to be linked with 2 women and wielding callandor. Elayne & Aviendha? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/24 "2009-11-01T21:50:36Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > The choedan kal didn’t just explode though, it was intentionally destroyed by Rand as he didn’t trust himself with the power. Right. The point being that in a similar situation to Lews-Therin-in-the-prologue, he made a different choice. He realized why it was worth living, and he realized that having that much power was no good. ---
**Author:** ![Helena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c68b51/32.png) [@Helena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/25 "2009-11-01T22:17:38Z")
I semi-recall Brandon saying that Mat was his favorite character. I could be wrong on that, though. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/26 "2009-11-02T15:37:25Z")
I finished it this weekend and I really enjoyed it. There were a couple of parts where Sanderson’s different style came out but overall I think the feel was very similar. I enjoyed Mat creating the detailed back stories even thought it doesn’t quite feel like something Mat would do. I was bummed that Mat and Thom didn’t start their journey to rescue Moraine since that is what I was most excited about but I’m sure that will make up a large part of the next book since Jordan always seemed to rotate his main characters I figure the next book will be about Perrin and Mat who are my two favorites. I’ve got to say you fast readers in this thread were killing me last week. Every time I scrolled by this thread I wanted to join in but the one time I did I got as far a Verin’s death and had to stop but I really wanted to know more. By the way her was one of the coolest scenes in the book I really would love to know more about her story in the Black. All in all I am really psyched for the next book and I hope that Sanderson is able to stick to his book a year promise. ---
**Author:** ![Darkhold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@Darkhold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkhold)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/27 "2009-11-02T18:05:58Z")
> [@Kylede](#): > > The style comment, I loved…nary a “sniff” or a “snort” or a full page disscourse on how someone “was a head taller” then someone else. Funny I felt just about every major female character got a sniff in. It was almost a tribute in a way. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/28 "2009-11-03T23:13:37Z")
Do you all think that Verin lied to Matt about being drawn West to help him? I don’t recall indication one way or another. She did mention that she got the drawings off of a darkfriend. Not sure if she was sent, planned to intercept him on her own, or was pulled by his TV-ness. And I don’t remember at all what she was doing before that. I need to review the fan sites. Can’t remember what many folks were up to when last seen. Loial? Fane? Doesn’t seem like much in the shadowspawn department except for Forsaken and dfriends. I don’t think we’ve seen a Myrddraal (other than the uberddraal) or one of those singing bat things for a while. Not too many trollocs either other than the brief encounter in this book. But I don’t really remember so well. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/29 "2009-11-04T01:15:59Z")
Just finished it an hour ago, and it was a joy to read, more than a frustration. I hadn’t had that feeling about WOT books in a long time (though Vol 11 came close). Still waiting to find out what the other Seanchan assassins who infiltrated the White Tower during the raid will do, though… I’m quite content with having Sanderson wrapping up the series for us all. Think we can get him to work with GRRM? ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/30 "2009-11-04T08:35:57Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Do you all think that Verin lied to Matt about being drawn West to help him? I don’t recall indication one way or another. She did mention that she got the drawings off of a darkfriend. Not sure if she was sent, planned to intercept him on her own, or was pulled by his TV-ness. > > And I don’t remember at all what she was doing before that. > > I need to review the fan sites. Can’t remember what many folks were up to when last seen. Loial? Fane? Doesn’t seem like much in the shadowspawn department except for Forsaken and dfriends. I don’t think we’ve seen a Myrddraal (other than the uberddraal) or one of those singing bat things for a while. Not too many trollocs either other than the brief encounter in this book. But I don’t really remember so well. Loial was last seen speaking at an Ogier meeting, he convinced the Ogier not to leave via their “magic door” and to stay and fight the shadow ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/31 "2009-11-04T16:52:08Z")
Typing on a phone from the doc’s office so I need to be brief… I too loved it. The style was different, but in a good way. Very little embroidery desciption. Thank tricking god. Looks like Rand has gotten control of his journey through the dark side and come out having learned Cadsuane’s lesson, even if not how she’d intended. Couple comments about what other people have said… I too liked Egwene’s bit, though I think her punishment cycle lasted a bt long. Still, that was the only part that really dragged. Perrin and Rand have finally seem to have dealt with their overly-emotional (page padding) whining, so that’s good. EDIT: Verin’s blatant lie was way the he’ll back in like the 2nd or 3rd book. She came and found some of the boys and told them Moiraine had sent her. When she found out, Moiraine flat out stated that she had no. So, one of the two told a direct lie. Graendel’s death was perfect. Really, why walk into what will certainly be a deadly trap that has been prepared for years when you can just nuke the site from orbit? I loved the part with Verin, and she probably didn’t ask Egwene to balefire her because she couldn’t (forkroot, remember?), and nobody on the light side knows about that but Rand, and he only just found out from Moridin. Gawyn always was a badass - remember that as an apprentice he took out two warders, one being Hammar, who was apparently a pretty big deal. Also, the fact of the matter is he’s an awesome swordsman, and it didn’t do him a damnedbit of good in this book. And that is my big complaint about the book. What possible reason would Moridin have to tell Rand about Balefire keeping the Dark One from saving his servants? That’s right up there with the bad guy explaining his sinister plan to Perry the Platypus. I did like it how Sanderson made it REALLY clear in the opening chapters he things would be handled, with someone finally taking care of Maseama and Liandrin (Galina?) once and for all. A good way of saying, “You know these characters who have hung on waaaaay too long? Yeah, that’s over.” ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/32 "2009-11-04T17:00:13Z")
Oops. Knew I’d forget something. Didn’t the epilogue of Knife of Dreams make it pretty obvious that Demandred is definitely Mazrim Taim? You know, emmisaries from Tar Valon go to the Black Tower, are taken to Taim, and he says to his men “Let the lord of chaos rule” to the sinster laughter of his men? When was the last time we heard about 13 channelers and 13 myrdraal being able to forcibly turn someone to the Dark Side? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Draelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@Draelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Draelin)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/33 "2009-11-04T17:30:38Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Didn’t the epilogue of Knife of Dreams make it pretty obvious that Demandred is definitely Mazrim Taim? That implies that he’s a Darkfriend (since they’re all so fond of the phrase), but I’m pretty sure he’s not Demandred. At Shadar Logoth during the cleansing of _saidin_, Demandred’s POV made it clear that he did not recognize one of the more prominent Asha’man (I can’t remember off the top of my head if it was Dashiva or Flinn, but I’m pretty sure it was one of the two). Taim would have known them, or at least been able to recognize their faces as familiar, but Demandred was taken totally by surprise when the guy channeled at him. > [@](#): > > And that is my big complaint about the book. What possible reason would Moridin have to tell Rand about Balefire keeping the Dark One from saving his servants? That’s right up there with the bad guy explaining his sinister plan to Perry the Platypus. I think this is kind of a nod to the fact that Moridin (and Rand to some extent) is coming to the realization that whatever happened with the simultaneous balefire in Shadar Logoth at the end of _Crown of Swords_ (and possibly as far back as the sky-battle over Falme), it forged a connection between him and Rand that is becoming more and more solid. It’s possible that he sees Rand as almost a kindred spirit, at this point, and sees no reason not to be friendly. If Rand is becoming aware of Moridin in his head, then Moridin is almost certainly becoming aware of Rand, and the possibility that soon Rand will begin to have access to his knowledge the same way he does with Lews Therin. Of course, there’s also the simple possibility that telling Rand that balefire kills the Forsaken _really_ dead, Moridin serves his own need to whittle away the infighting Chosen and concentrate more on unifying the forces of the Dark. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/34 "2009-11-04T17:35:18Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > Loial was last seen speaking at an Ogier meeting, he convinced the Ogier not to leave via their “magic door” and to stay and fight the shadow > [@Draelin](#): > > That implies that he’s a Darkfriend (since they’re all so fond of the phrase), but I’m pretty sure he’s not Demandred. At Shadar Logoth during the cleansing of _saidin_, Demandred’s POV made it clear that he did not recognize one of the more prominent Asha’man (I can’t remember off the top of my head if it was Dashiva or Flinn, but I’m pretty sure it was one of the two). Taim would have known them, or at least been able to recognize their faces as familiar, but Demandred was taken totally by surprise when the guy channeled at him. Dang, you’re right. Still, this may seem silly, but did we ever see the lord of chaos phrase except at that one point and where Demandred is talking to the Dark One? Anyone have any guesses as to what is in Mat’s letters from Verin that we know he’ll be forced to open? ---
**Author:** ![Draelin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@Draelin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Draelin)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/35 "2009-11-04T17:38:23Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Still, this may seem silly, but did we ever see the lord of chaos phrase except at that one point and where Demandred is talking to the Dark One? I want to say that various Forsaken have made reference to it in the last five or six books, but I can’t currently come up with any specific instances. I also almost want to say that Alviarin or Galina, or some other high-placed Black thought it at one point or another, but I’m _far_ too lazy to go looking for it right now. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/36 "2009-11-04T17:39:08Z")
> [@Draelin](#): > > I think this is kind of a nod to the fact that Moridin (and Rand to some extent) is coming to the realization that whatever happened with the simultaneous balefire in Shadar Logoth at the end of _Crown of Swords_ (and possibly as far back as the sky-battle over Falme), it forged a connection between him and Rand that is becoming more and more solid. It’s possible that he sees Rand as almost a kindred spirit, at this point, and sees no reason not to be friendly. If Rand is becoming aware of Moridin in his head, then Moridin is almost certainly becoming aware of Rand, and the possibility that soon Rand will begin to have access to his knowledge the same way he does with Lews Therin. > > Of course, there’s also the simple possibility that telling Rand that balefire kills the Forsaken _really_ dead, Moridin serves his own need to whittle away the infighting Chosen and concentrate more on unifying the forces of the Dark. Eh, I hope not, though I see no other real explanation. Fact of the matter is Moridin is the boss, and not only is he in charge of the Foresaken, but those killed and brought back seem to have a good chance of ending up even deeper in his control ala Moghiedien and Lanfear. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/37 "2009-11-04T18:11:27Z")
It does seem definitely clear that there’s some sort of connection between Rand/LTT and Moridin/Ishamael… wasn’t Moridin’s hand itching after Rand’s got blown off? I have a strong suspicion that there’s some fundamental connection between the two of them relating to the cyclic nature of the wheel of time which is going to play a big role in the way the series actually ends. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/38 "2009-11-04T18:28:34Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Eh, I hope not, though I see no other real explanation. Fact of the matter is Moridin is the boss, and not only is he in charge of the Foresaken, but those killed and brought back seem to have a good chance of ending up even deeper in his control ala Moghiedien and Lanfear. Moghedien has (iirc) never died. Tortured by Shaidar Haran, yes. (And that would probably make anyone wish for death.) I suspect that Lanfear _did_ die though, as she has a new body. What both of those two have in common is that they have been Mindtrapped - enslaved to whoever holds the trap. Moghedien’s happened onscreen, early in one of the midperiod books. Currently Moridin has the traps. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/39 "2009-11-04T18:46:12Z")
Great book! Loved it from start to finish. The story is really hoping along now. I have a couple of questions though for anyone who has read the book and might have some thoughts: First off, what happened to the women who went to the black tower to bond Asha’man? They mentioned it a few times, but they seem to have dropped off into a black hole (I realize there is no answer to this question btw…just curious what folks think). Also…what of the black tower? Is it completely corrupt, with all of the Asha’man on the Dark Ones side, or will some come to Rand before the last battle? he doesn’t seem to have all that many Asha’man with him in this story. Did Rand’s final cataclysmic use of the access key clear away the storm that had been blocking the sun through most of the book, or did it merely clear it around Dragonmount? It was mentioned in the epilogue, but I couldn’t tell. I can hardly wait for the next book at this point! I presume the next one will be the final volume…that kind of makes me sad. I’ve been following this story since the first book was published. Sort of like the Dark Tower series, I’ll be sad when it’s finally over and done with. I hope it has a better ending that that of the Dark Tower though! 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565/40 "2009-11-04T18:54:17Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I presume the next one will be the final volume Nope, two more books to come. The “final volume” (AKA volume 12) turned into a trilogy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-12-the-gathering-storm-spoilers/515565.md?page=3)