# Wheel of time, any good? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 19, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504 "2004-08-19T03:37:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ghanima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Ghanima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ghanima)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/21 "2004-08-19T18:07:48Z")
I’m so glad this thread got started! Because I have a couple friends telling me that TWOT is simply fantastic and I have to go out and read them all… after reading this thread I will not waste my time. I’ve been following Goodkind’s Sword of Truth series and I’m seriously running out of patience, the first one was the best by far and he’s up to book ten or something now. It’s so formulaic: hero and lover get separated, some hardcore magic that seems insurmountable is slowly taking over, and then in the end they realize that they were wearing the ruby slippers that could take them home all along! I’m hoping it ends soon. Also, I never bought the “Bones” short story because it’s only in hardcover and ridiculously expensive. Hardcover prices really piss me off. Anyway, if you’re looking for a good read, “Wizard’s First Rule” is excellent. But don’t feel obligated to read the rest of the series. And of course I recommend the Dune series (the original series by Frank Herbert, not so much the new ones by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/22 "2004-08-19T18:29:47Z")
I quit before page 100 of the first book: it all seemed terribly derivative and uninteresting to me. Nothing I’ve heard about Jordan since then has changed my mind. I like Guy Gavriel Kay (the whole Fionavar Tapestry excepted–that was horrible), and GRRM is fantastic. I just don’t see Jordan doing anything new or worthwhile. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/23 "2004-08-19T18:59:58Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I like Guy Gavriel Kay (the whole Fionavar Tapestry excepted–that was horrible) THANK YOU! I swear, everyone I’ve talked to thinks the FT is the best thing ever put out by the hand of man. I really like everything else of his I’ve read, but I’ve been trying to get through book one of the FT for about six months now. I just don’t care about anyone in that book. I’ve got to back up **gonzoron** a bit, despite my earlier seemingly anti-Jordan post. Jordan does a lot of things well. I like the complexity of the series. I like the fact that he drops hints in one book that bear fruit seven books later. I like trying to figure out what the various dreams and visions and prophecies mean. I like wondering about peoples’ secret identities. There are a few scenes he’s written that I’d place among the best scenes I’ve ever read - Rand’s vision of the history of the Aiel among the crystal columns is absolutely brilliant. He sets out thousands of years of history in a few pages of vignettes while simultaneously throwing in huge twist after huge twist. The scene where Perrin and the Two Rivers people are fighting the Trolloc army and Faile rides up and saves the day always gets to me. The rescue of Rand by the Asha’men is incredibly exciting. So when he wants to, Jordan can write really gripping stuff. It’s just the hundreds and hundreds of pages of filler in between that get to me. When stuff happens, it happens in a well-written, exciting way. Usually. So MAKE STUFF HAPPEN!! Oh, and Goodkind isn’t worthy to wipe Jordan’s ass. Which is really saying something. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/24 "2004-08-19T19:37:06Z")
Reading this thread is funny because I’ve been there. No, I haven’t read Jordan (though I might try it if he ever finishes it) but I’m trapped in a series that I feel will never end, that started really well and has since dragged on to what feels like infinity. Kate Elliott’s Crown of Stars. Now, she claimed it was going to be five books and so far it’s only at least six, so she isn’t in Jordan’s league. Yet. I have a bad feeling about this. _sigh_ I’ll have to finish it, though. My heart goes out to you prisoners of Jordan. ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/25 "2004-08-19T19:47:15Z")
> [@Athena](#): > > You’re taking a FIVE YEAR break between the third and fourth book? Unless I’m misreading you, you’re a little off here. The “five year gap” was something that was going to happen in the series itself. That is, the fourth book was going to pick up five years after the third book ended. But Martin ended up scrapping that idea, and starting over with the fourth book, which is, in part, what has caused this delay. Martin never planned to take a five year break between writing the two books, and indeed has been at work on the fourth book for most of the time since the third came out (minus the time spent on some minor projects). Of course, no matter what he intended, it might end up being published five years after the third book; it will certainly be more than four years after (it’ll be four in November, I believe, and there’s no chance of the book being out by then). And I read the first book of the Fionavar Tapestry (The Summer Tree), and never felt the desire to read another book of Kay’s. Too many instances of the author tricking the readers, IMO. I don’t mind cliffhangers, but when an author delibrately frames the narrative to convince readers that something happened when it didn’t, I find it annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/26 "2004-08-19T20:22:58Z")
As my username would suggest, I am a _huge_ Guy Kay fan - perhaps the bigest in the Middle East - and even I wouldn’t recomment _Fionavar_ to the uninitated. If you want to read the man who I consider the greatest fantasy writer alive (the vote is still out on Martin - I’m waiting to see him finish his series), then start with **Tigana** (MtMoYBLaBTtS), read through to **arantium** , and then, when you’ve acustomed yourself to his style and are willing to excuse his foibles, then read FT. Or don’t - it really isn’t his best work. I blame Tolkien. All that research for **Silmarillion** must have blown Kay’s synapses. **Fionavar** is less book than fallout. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/27 "2004-08-19T20:42:39Z")
I’ve read just about everything Kay has written, except the Fionavir Tapestry. I’d say _Sailing to Sarantium_ and the sequel _Lord of Emperors_ are my personal favorites. Not to continue the hijack or anything… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2004, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/28 "2004-08-19T20:46:39Z")
> [@Amok](#): > > And I read the first book of the Fionavar Tapestry (The Summer Tree), and never felt the desire to read another book of Kay’s. Too many instances of the author tricking the readers, IMO. I don’t mind cliffhangers, but when an author delibrately frames the narrative to convince readers that something happened when it didn’t, I find it annoying. I’d give one more book of his a chance; **Smeghead** , I’d stop giving the Fionavar Tapestry a chance. I believe he wrote it right after editing The Silmarillion, and it really shows: it’s very close to Tolkien. When he develops his own voice, later on, he’s really quite good. _Sailing to Sarantium_, is probably my favorite of his works, although I’ve not read the highly-acclaimed _Tigana_. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![cichlidiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f9b8f/32.png) [@cichlidiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cichlidiot)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/29 "2004-08-20T02:10:32Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Then book 10 came along with 500 pages of absolutely NOTHING happening! Literally! The entire book covered one afternoon. Bah! I was reading this thread aloud to my b/f since we are currently going through this series together, at the above line, he just broke out laughing. I remember hearing about how great this series was, and so when I found the first book a bit derivative, I stuck with it. It did get better, and I really liked the books until (what seems to be a majority) book 6. I stopped about halfway through for a bit, and so far, have not been able to hang on until Nynaeve and Elayne leave Salidar, if they ever do. I’m getting really frustrated with the whole series, though my b/f isn’t (yet?), but even he thought it was pretty bad when I read book ten spans one afternoon. I guess I’ll keep going to book 9, since it appears something happens. Not only does nothing seem to be happening, I’m with **Tiramisu** , in that some of the characters aren’t really all that likeable. I loathed Faile from the beginning, and reading about how whipped Perrin is, was like participating in a gulag, rather than enjoying a story. With the already mentioned braid tugging, and Rand repeating to himself over and over again he is really Rand, not only do I feel impatient, I find myself struggling to still care. Though I feel I am glossing over a lot of good points, I do find it hard at times to remember them. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/30 "2004-08-20T03:34:58Z")
> [@cichlidiot](#): > > With the already mentioned braid tugging, and Rand repeating to himself over and over again he is really Rand, not only do I feel impatient, I find myself struggling to still care. Though I feel I am glossing over a lot of good points, I do find it hard at times to remember them. Yeah, while someone in this thread mentioned that they like the comforting repetition, it drives me nuts. So, Lan is hard as rock? His face is like stony planes? Thom has thich white moustaches? Cairheinen are short? Tairens have oiled beards? Domani dress like hos? Which way are Loial’s ears pointing now? Does Perrin still hate his axe? Does Elayne still have red-gold hair? Is Rhuarc still incredibly deadly? Do all Warders still look like they’re ready to pounce, even when at rest? What color is Berelain’s slutty low-cut dress today? Does Min still dress like a boy, and if so, in what color? Is Egwene still extremely short? Are the Wise Ones still tough-as-nails humorless old bitches? Do all Aes Sedai exude that Aes Sedai calm (except that 90% of the time they’re on camera they’re near panic)? Are Sea Folk dark skinned, covered in earrings with gold medallions…and topless when on their ships? Is Bayle Domon’s beard still missing a moustache? If we’re not reminded every damned chapter we might forget! Are Aiel really dangerous? How dangerous are they? One of the first times we saw them five of them had THREE Myrdraal cornered and it seemed clear that the Aiel were going to win, it was just a matter of how many would die killing the Myrdraal. Of course, once they join Rand’s side they’re not nearly so tough. I prefer GRR Martin’s way of describing such things much better. Besides having the balls to kill characters (the Red Wedding had me thinking that Catelyn MUST be having some sort of breakdown or something, because this couldn’t POSSIBLY be happening…), anyone recall how Martin describes how his characters are dressed? ‘Character X put on his red and gold doublet, feeling that it was as good a thing as any to wear to his own trial and execution’. Contrast that with a three page description of every dress Elayne tries on before deciding what to wear on Generic Day X. -Joe, actually really does love the books but has…criticisms ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/31 "2004-08-20T03:41:20Z")
> [@cichlidiot](#): > > when I found the first book a bit derivative, I stuck with it. I remember reading at one point that Jordan said he deliberately made the first book sound familiar (we’d say derivative) as a way to sort of ease new readers into his world. FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/32 "2004-08-20T03:49:24Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > I remember reading at one point that Jordan said he deliberately made the first book sound familiar (we’d say derivative) as a way to sort of ease new readers into his world. FWIW. Well, it’d be nice if he’d take off the kid gloves and stop easing sometime before the Final Battle at the Bore… ---
**Author:** ![cichlidiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f9b8f/32.png) [@cichlidiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cichlidiot)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/33 "2004-08-20T03:56:45Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Cairheinen are short? Tairens have oiled beards? Domani dress like hos? Which way are Loial’s ears pointing now? Does Perrin still hate his axe? Does Elayne still have red-gold hair? Is Rhuarc still incredibly deadly? Do all Warders still look like they’re ready to pounce, even when at rest? What color is Berelain’s slutty low-cut dress today? Does Min still dress like a boy, and if so, in what color? Is Egwene still extremely short? Are the Wise Ones still tough-as-nails humorless old bitches? Do all Aes Sedai exude that Aes Sedai calm (except that 90% of the time they’re on camera they’re near panic)? Are Sea Folk dark skinned, covered in earrings with gold medallions…and topless when on their ships? Is Bayle Domon’s beard still missing a moustache? Your post made me laugh so hard, I feel it was sort of cathartic. I’ll remember your words when I pick up book 6 again. “Which way are Loial’s ears pointing now?” Thank you for that, heh. > [@Smeghead](#): > > I remember reading at one point that Jordan said he deliberately made the first book sound familiar (we’d say derivative) as a way to sort of ease new readers into his world. FWIW. Interesting to know. I find the books quite original at this point, though I’m not a Fantasy expert by a long shot. Though I was worried in the beginning of book 1, I’ll say that it’s probably my favorite out of all the books, derivative or not. ---
**Author:** ![stochastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e19b73/32.png) [@stochastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stochastic)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/34 "2004-08-20T05:31:52Z")
Chalk me up as another reader that couldn’t stand book 10 of TWOT and the nothingness of a plot it contains. I originally started reading the thing a year ago and then gave up on it. I picked it up again this summer and made it about half way through before I let out a frustrated bark and flung the book across the room where it now still sits two months later. Blood and Ashes! The only characters I care about are Rand, Mat, Perrin, Thom and Lan. The Forsaken can smite all the rest at the beginning of book 11 for all I care. Let’s just hope that [this bookcover](http://www.aracnet.com/~ldv/TLBbook.jpg) doesn’t come to fruition in the manner presented. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/35 "2004-08-20T06:00:53Z")
I commend you all for consigning countless hours to oblivion reading Jordan. But really, when the series is called “The Wheel of Time” you should damn well expect it to go cyclically 😉 Now, if you want to read a ten-book series where characters develop, change, and stuff happens, I recommend David Weber’s Honor Harrington series. The best part is that it’s all available free from the Baen Library. ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/36 "2004-08-20T07:05:02Z")
I have been debating for years whether to make the effort to read WoT. Thanks to this thread, I have resolved that I may one day, if I have the time, check out books 1-4, and possibly 5 and 6 as well. I am singularly unimpressed by Jordan so far, based on reading his abysmal Conan pastiches collected (I think) in volumes called “The Chronicles of Conan”. What really struck me about him was his complete lack of imagination and cheap formulaic writing even when employing such promising base material. I always thought that these were not the works to consider for a fair judgement of Jordan, but the books were so lacking that they completely biased any subsequent thought I had of him. I do however find fantasy books in general to be of poor quality. I enjoyed Feist’s **Riftwar** trilogy, which was his first I think, and based on that I then read the relatively recent **Serpentwar** saga – good-bye, Feist, you just lost yourself a reader with what strikes me as cheap and unsuccessful imitation of Douglas Hill children’s books. David Eddings was funny and highly entertaining for the first few series, then he became a massive disappointment, like a really tired, old, and overworked one-trick pony. Different characters sound exactly alike, and the only discernible distinction in speech pattern and response is the character’s sex. It’s even difficult to tell series from series. Even something like the Dragonlance trilogies is better put together and more entertaining than that sort of tripe! I often wonder where the Tolkiens, Howards, Leibers, LeGuins, Donaldsons, even the Bradleys and Cheryhs, etc. have all gone. I’ll give the WoT early books a shot, but is there anything else out there from the last 15 years that is worth reading for someone who enjoys a good fantasy but is sick to death of the fantasy bandwagon formulaic money-making machine? The last one I tried was **Caddoran** by Roger Taylor and it was enough to make me take an oath never to buy a fantasy novel again. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/37 "2004-08-20T07:09:45Z")
**Abe** : Have you ever tried Tad Williams? _Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn_ is one of my all-time favorites, only a few steps back from Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/38 "2004-08-20T07:24:19Z")
> [@joshthehappy](#): > > Does anyone above by chance have a suggestion of a story? Not nescecarrily fantasy, but a good series that could be enjoyable, i’m tired of my damned addiction to the television and my computer. That would have to be Robin Hobb 1st Farseer Trilogy Then Liveship Trilogy Then The third trilogy set in the same world that I can’t remember the name of. The first two series stand alone, even though they are set in the same world. The third series sort of links the prior two. These books are generally acclaimed. I can’t recall ever seeing them slated to the level of Jordan. I’ll worry about TWOT when it gets as bad as Sword of Truth. Did anybody read Naked Empire. Was it REALLY as bad as i think it was? ---
**Author:** ![Abe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f1d935/32.png) [@Abe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Abe)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/39 "2004-08-20T07:48:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > **Abe** : Have you ever tried Tad Williams? _Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn_ is one of my all-time favorites, only a few steps back from Tolkien. No I haven’t, thank you, I will. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2004, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504/40 "2004-08-20T13:12:16Z")
> [@Abe](#): > > I’ll give the WoT early books a shot, but is there anything else out there from the last 15 years that is worth reading for someone who enjoys a good fantasy but is sick to death of the fantasy bandwagon formulaic money-making machine? The last one I tried was **Caddoran** by Roger Taylor and it was enough to make me take an oath never to buy a fantasy novel again. Chaz Brenchley’s Outremer books. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wheel-of-time-any-good/260504.md?page=3)