# When a Cigar is Just a Cigar: Quit Making Characters Gay Just Because You Want Them To Be. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 7, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997 "2017-11-07T20:43:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/41 "2017-11-08T00:35:11Z")
But you can’t deny the freaky-deaky between Legolamb and Gimlet. The Ho-Yay is strong between these two! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/42 "2017-11-08T00:39:20Z")
OK, since we’re talking about the Marvel movies, how about this one? After _The Avengers_ and _Captain America: The Winter Soldier_, it was widely assumed that Black Widow and Hawkeye were in a romantic relationship. But in _Age of Ultron_, it was clearly established that, no, Hawkeye was happily married to another woman, and Black Widow was just a very close friend to him (and to his wife and kids). Did it annoy you that people were assuming a relationship between those two? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/43 "2017-11-08T01:16:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And don’t you guys even get me started about the _LoTR_ movies. Frodo was not gay!!! And Gandfalf was not… oh, that’s a bit of sticky wicket isn’t it? Ian McKellan a gay actor played a wizard that if you think about it had no sex drive at all. After all Gandalf is effectively an angel. I strongly suspect his wicket was never sticky. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/44 "2017-11-08T01:23:14Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Ian McKellan a gay actor played a wizard that if you think about it had no sex drive at all. After all Gandalf is effectively an angel. > > I strongly suspect his wicket was never sticky. Why would he have a wicket if it couldn’t get sticky? Think about it. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/45 "2017-11-08T01:28:34Z")
Cigars are just plain _nasty!_ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/46 "2017-11-08T01:38:59Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Cigars are just plain _nasty!_ Only if they’re sticky. Or not! ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/47 "2017-11-08T01:50:42Z")
At the time I saw the scene I did not think “gay lovers”; I thought a person who she deeply cared about and who was killed by Hela saving her. Long established military movie trope of watching best buddy killed saving your life. If I thought more about the scene it was along the lines that it did not quite bring home the emotional impact of reliving the loss on the character from trying to suppress the feeling of the loss to directing it at Hela and re-establishing herself as a Valkyrie, not a scrapper. The transition of her character, its growth, needed something more after the reliving the memory. Some greater hardness. Resolve rather than resignation. The delivery of the line that said something like “I’m going to die: it may as well be trying to bury my sword in her heart.” did not hit the mark to sell the character. One of the few critiques I had of the movie; I thought it great and loads of fun overall. And reading about how others saw that scene and concluded “gay lovers” (independent of any awareness of canon, backstory, or deleted scenes) I thought, dang me, you be _dense_. Yeah, once pointed out it is pretty obviously the intent. For the purpose of the movie plot though it was the “watching person deeply cared about die killed by villain saving her life” that mattered … not whether that cared about included a sexual component. IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/48 "2017-11-08T02:24:25Z")
for some reason most ancient/mythical female warriors/groups end up being considered lesbian/bi at some point so people probably just thought it was a non main plot reveal… ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/49 "2017-11-08T02:33:19Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > This thread has its origins over in the [Thor: Ragnarok thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=840708&page=2) where, (no spoilers don’t worry) I’ve read articles and those "here is what the internet thinks about _blank_ type of stories about the character of Valkyrie. > > The details of what caused my statement aren’t REALLY a spoiler, but I’ll box it just in case and go from there > > In the movie, Valkyrie and her clan are shown fighting Hela. Part of the scene shows Valkyrie being saved from an arrow by one of her female warrior friends. It’s obvious that the girl died while Valkyrie lived. Because of this super short scene and even shorter segment of the scene I’ve read articles where people say “she’s gay and that was her lover who saved her!” > > So, regardless of if you read the spoiler or not, the crux of the argument is this: Because of the scene in question, there are people out there in internet land who claim the character is gay, or at least bisexual. However, there is absolutely nothing implied in the scene to merit that. Taking the movie and scene as it is, saying “she’s gay!” is simply a person wanting that to be true. > > This annoys me. > > A non-spoiler version of this would be the relationship of Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes in the MCU. Steve and Bucky are clearly very good friends who have gone to hell and back together. Steve spends most of his second and third movie trying to get his friend back. And yet, I’ve read articles written by, and about, people who insist that the two are gay, or were gay, or did gay things. Why? Because they’re the same gender and are extremely close? Can’t they just be, you know, extremely good friends and love each other because of that? > > I understand that there is a massive under representation of gay characters in pop culture, which needs to change, but claiming that a character is something that they aren’t just because you have an imagination isn’t the answer. > > A counter example would be a character in How to Train Your Dragon 2 named Gobber. Gobber was just a dude in Dragons 1, but in Dragons 2 he had a throwaway line of (paraphrasing) “You see, that’s why I never got married. Well, that and one other thing”. That is an ambiguous phrase, but it clearly had intentions. My first thought on that was “They made Gobber gay? Cool”. Despite the fact they never said it, they at least implied it. Compare that to the Steve and Bucky relationship, or the Valkyrie scene: There’s nothing that overt. Just two people of the same gender being close, so, oooomg! They have to be gay! > > This is getting a bit ranty, so I’ll let you all yell at me for being wrong and we’ll go from there 🙂 Just for shit and giggles, Loki is, in the Edda, bisexual, since he turned into a mare, got knocked up by the stallion Svadilfari, [and gave birth to Odin’s horse Sleipnir.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleipnir) But don’t get your gay all over my nice straight comic book movies because that’s just making up dirty stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/50 "2017-11-08T04:31:37Z")
> [@What Exit?;20\[588108](#): > > **Sir T-Cups** ; In the specific case that inspired this thread to be started, why is it such a annoyance that a member of an all female warrior force might be bi or gay? Seems more likely if anything. Do you also expect members of all-male police forces or military to be more likely to be gay or bi? > [@Chronos](#): > > Did it annoy you that people were assuming a relationship between those two? If not, why not? It made me roll my eyes that the people I saw making that assumption happen to be from a culture which assumes it’s not possible for a man and a woman to be friends. But what makes me roll my eyes is the second bit. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/51 "2017-11-08T07:53:42Z")
Just one note - this one movie doesn’t take place in isolation - there was another recent superhero movie featuring a group of all-female warriors where one is killed saving a protagonist and immediately mourned by another who is clearly depicted as her partner in the film … for a change, DC did it first. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/52 "2017-11-08T10:26:06Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > No, I haven’t seen the movie yet, but I hope to soon. [Deleted scene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gxg5HWTIAY&list=RD_gxg5HWTIAY) ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/53 "2017-11-08T11:36:59Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > Why is it not equally valid to assume the default is gay unless you see evidence to the contrary? Is there anything in _Captain America_ or _Thor_ that definitively says these characters are not gay? In the absence of evidence, I do think it’s not equally valid to assume the character is gay because the vast majority of the population is not gay. Lacking evidence, it’s reasonable to assume a character is straight for the same reason that it makes sense to assume that character is right-handed. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/54 "2017-11-08T12:17:39Z")
I don’t see why any assumptions need to be made at all. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/55 "2017-11-08T13:36:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, since we’re talking about the Marvel movies, how about this one? After _The Avengers_ and _Captain America: The Winter Soldier_, it was widely assumed that Black Widow and Hawkeye were in a romantic relationship. But in _Age of Ultron_, it was clearly established that, no, Hawkeye was happily married to another woman, and Black Widow was just a very close friend to him (and to his wife and kids). Did it annoy you that people were assuming a relationship between those two? If not, why not? That particular question is somewhat complicated by the fact that, in the comic books, Hawkeye and Black Widow _were_ romantically involved for a time. So some of that speculation may have just been folks bringing their comic book knowledge to the films. To the larger point, though, I agree that there shouldn’t be anything particularly “annoying” about the suggestion that a character of unidentified sexuality might be gay or bi. Particularly a character whose ultimate origin is in Norse mythology, which plays all sorts of games with sexual ambiguity–one of most popular myths about Thor has he and Loki disguising themselves (convicingly) as the goddess Freya and her handmaiden, in order to recover the stolen Mjölnir. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/56 "2017-11-08T14:46:15Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Do you also expect members of all-male police forces or military to be more likely to be gay or bi? Well, I’m talking in terms of Tropes, not real life. And yes, members of all female warrior groups have had a strong tendency towards being gay or bi in fiction; both in Science Fiction and Fantasy. Though I acknowledge that as usual I did not express myself that well or clearly. I mean we’re talking about a comic book movie, Tropes seem to be appropriate to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/57 "2017-11-08T15:33:47Z")
What annoys me is when people _insist_ that character A and character B must be boinking, because they’re very close to each other. Platonic love and deep friendship is not a thing for these people, apparently. It only counts if you’re rubbing genitals. The fan interpretation of these relationships is usually slash, because if a male and female character are very close and not related, the author will almost always pair them in canon, or make it a love triangle. No matter whether it makes sense or not, or if there’s any point in a romantic subplot, boy plus girl equals loooove. I mean, talk about LGBTQAetc representation. What are asexuals supposed to think, when any love that doesn’t involve sexual attraction is pretty much dismissed or denied? /rant over ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/58 "2017-11-08T17:28:27Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > That was incredibly bothersome, as he was well established as heterosexual, Are they saying that it’s a choice, or that to be straight you have to be a womanizer/visibly in a relationship? Or that a guy whose main superpower is being brave is too scared to come out of the closet, and instead spends all his time with beards? > [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > As far as Steve and Bucky goes, we are outright told they are interested in women. Psst! \*\* Men can be bisexual, too! \*\*Just because they’ve usually been portrayed as dating women does not mean that they aren’t also interested in men! ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/59 "2017-11-08T17:31:48Z")
> [@Crazy\_Canuck](#): > > And we all know that Cap is definitely topping Bucky. I understand there’s a gay porn that conclusively answers that question. Were one to google for it. (not at work, obvs.) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2017, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997/60 "2017-11-08T17:40:08Z")
What - no mention of Dumbledore? As for Gobber, given that he’s missing several body parts I assumed the “other thing” had more to do with something else being missing but if he was supposed to be gay, well, eh. Don’t care. Good for him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-cigar-is-just-a-cigar-quit-making-characters-gay-just-because-you-want-them-to-be/800997.md?page=4)