# When a Country No Longer Exists **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 20, 2004, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110 "2004-09-20T08:55:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![CrazyFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@CrazyFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyFoo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/1 "2004-09-20T08:55:57Z")
I was born in the former Czechoslovakia in 1968. I’m in the midst of filling out my Canadian passport application and I’m stumped on the following question: “Place of Birth” “City” “Country” On January 1, 1993 the Czech Republic and Slovakia emerged as independent nations. Since the country I was born in does not exist anymore, what do I write on my passport application where it asks me “what country and city were you born in?” Is it correct to write the currnet country name? Do I write the old name? Are both correct? Sorry for the stupid question, but this one has me stumped. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/2 "2004-09-20T09:10:53Z")
I believe you put down "Czechoslovakia ". The application wants to know where you were born, not what is there now. You were born into the legal entity known as Czechoslovakia, and nowhere else. If it doesn’t exist now, that does not affect the nature of the question “where were you born?”. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/3 "2004-09-20T09:42:20Z")
Agreed, for example in the extreme case, you’d still have written ‘Krakatoa’ if you had been born there before it blew up. ---
**Author:** ![Ice\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/dfb087/32.png) [@Ice\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ice_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/4 "2004-09-20T09:46:46Z")
In agreement with the others. A relative of mine was born in Enfield, when it was outside London, part of Middlesex. Now Enfield is part of North London, overtaken by the sprawl – but to her dying day, she put down that she came from Enfield, Middlesex, not Enfield, London. It depends in many cases on what the place was called, rather than the way it is now. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/5 "2004-09-20T11:05:14Z")
I think if I were you, I’d call immigration and settle the question for sure. I don’t agree with the others. The immigration people are likely going to want to do background checks. What happens when you get a 23-year-old immigration worker that doesn’t recognize Czechoslavakia, and can’t find it in the atlas? For that matter, there’s got to be an Asian Indian on this board. Do you all write Mumbai or Bombay? How about our African friends? Were you born in name-of-this-week or name-of-last-week? ---
**Author:** ![six\_personalities](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@six\_personalities](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/six_personalities)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/6 "2004-09-20T12:02:12Z")
Don’t get me started on :mad: Mumbai. All the PC lot are insisting that we call it this now as this is its new name and that it is ‘racist’ to refer to it as Bombay as that’s the English imperial name.We don’t refer to Moskva,Munchen or Wien do we?And please call it Peking not Beijing :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/7 "2004-09-20T12:18:27Z")
> [@six\_personalities](#): > > Don’t get me started on :mad: Mumbai. All the PC lot are insisting that we call it this now as this is its new name and that it is ‘racist’ to refer to it as Bombay as that’s the English imperial name.We don’t refer to Moskva,Munchen or Wien do we?And please call it Peking not Beijing :mad: Hmmm… what’s your take on Zimbabwe/Rhodesia? ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/8 "2004-09-20T13:42:38Z")
> [@six\_personalities](#): > > Don’t get me started on :mad: Mumbai. All the PC lot are insisting that we call it this now as this is its new name and that it is ‘racist’ to refer to it as Bombay as that’s the English imperial name.We don’t refer to Moskva,Munchen or Wien do we?And please call it Peking not Beijing :mad: Interesting rant. If this wasn’t GQ, I’d follow up on it. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/9 "2004-09-20T13:51:04Z")
I agree with **Balthisar** , and here’s why. Most of the posters are running on _common sense_ when they suggest going for the old or new name. However, this is government we’re talking about, and government often runs contrary to common sense. I’d hate to wait an extra month for a passport because I did things the sensible way. Check with Immigration. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/10 "2004-09-20T13:57:56Z")
> [@six\_personalities](#): > > Don’t get me started on :mad: Mumbai. All the PC lot are insisting that we call it this now as this is its new name and that it is ‘racist’ to refer to it as Bombay as that’s the English imperial name.We don’t refer to Moskva,Munchen or Wien do we?And please call it Peking not Beijing :mad: :rolleyes: [The Mumbai Pages: The complete guide to the city of Mumbai (Bombay)](http://theory.tifr.res.in/bombay/) - it feels lik about the fifth time I’ve given that link on these boards. If you don’t like something, check your facts before trying to dismiss it by calling it PC. ‘Bombay’ isn’t anything to do with the English. And we call it Mumbai now because it was renamed by an act of parliament. And ‘Peking’ is the name used in a different part of China. Which, for use in English, isn’t as silly as ‘Wien’ - it’s more like using ‘Vienne’. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/11 "2004-09-20T14:06:10Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I think if I were you, I’d call immigration and settle the question for sure. I don’t agree with the others. The immigration people are likely going to want to do background checks. What happens when you get a 23-year-old immigration worker that doesn’t recognize Czechoslavakia, and can’t find it in the atlas? I’d agree that checking with the Passport Office is probably the best thing — better safe than sorry. However, I sincerely hope that there aren’t people without a cursory knowledge of 20th-century history running background checks on passport applicants. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/12 "2004-09-20T14:18:22Z")
You do whatever a Canadian immigration lawyer says you should do, in this circumstance. However, as a general rule, not to be construed as legal advice on how to fill out a form in accordance with regulations, I’ve always seen stuff like: “born Aug. 1, 1899, Ljubljana, Austria-Hungarian Empire (now Slovenia)” – i.e., the person was born in the city of Ljubljana, then a part of the Dual Monarchy, now in (and the capital of) Slovenia. So you’d write, “born Sometember 24, 1968, Brno, Czechoslovakia (now Czech. Rep.)” or “born Sometember 24, 1968, Bratislava, Czechoslovakia (now Slovakia).” ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/13 "2004-09-20T15:00:57Z")
How about if you were born in a country this one doesn’t recognize? For example, if you fill in “born Sometember 24, 1968, Grozny, Chechen Republic”. (You can find an example of a country we don’t recognize that was claiming independence in 1968 if you must, don’t let my example distract you from my question.) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/14 "2004-09-20T15:11:18Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > How about if you were born in a country this one doesn’t recognize? For example, if you fill in “born Sometember 24, 1968, Grozny, Chechen Republic”. (You can find an example of a country we don’t recognize that was claiming independence in 1968 if you must, don’t let my example distract you from my question.) It’d get returned straight back to you - you were born in the USSR, like it or not. (You could try “Born Belfast, Republic of Ireland” as another example.) ---
**Author:** ![Racer1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee59a6/32.png) [@Racer1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Racer1)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/15 "2004-09-20T15:14:09Z")
> [@Ice Wolf](#): > > In agreement with the others. A relative of mine was born in Enfield, when it was outside London, part of Middlesex. Now Enfield is part of North London, overtaken by the sprawl – but to her dying day, she put down that she came from Enfield, Middlesex, not Enfield, London. > > It depends in many cases on what the place was called, rather than the way it is now. Enfield is still listed as Middlesex in addresses. If you were to mail a letter there, you would still have to put Enfield, Middlesex, rather than Enfield, London. Even though Middlesex no longer exists as an entity or authority, it still exists in the postal sense (and as a cricket team). Edmonton and Southgate that became part of the London borough of Enfield in the changes you describe, still have the London part, however. I was born there too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CrazyFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@CrazyFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyFoo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/16 "2004-09-20T15:24:01Z")
Thanks for all the helpful replies everyone. I just got off the phone with the passport office in Ottawa and spoke to a woman with a heavy, heavy French accent who seemed rather unsure of her self. (judging by her tone and lack of confidence) She said since it was called Czechoslovakia when I was born there, that’s what I “could put” on the application, and if “they” want to change it, they can. So to be on the safe side and to prevent delays, I’ll take Polycarp’s advice and state (now Slovakia) Thanks again and regards ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/17 "2004-09-20T15:37:36Z")
I hate to imagine what happens when the issue of China gets involved. I can see some unfortunate trying to write on his passport application "Born 1940 in Peking (now Beijing), Republic of China (now the People’s Republic of China but the Republic of China is still here it’s just not there anymore). ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/18 "2004-09-20T15:46:26Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > I hate to imagine what happens when the issue of China gets involved. I can see some unfortunate trying to write on his passport application “Born 1940 in Peking (now Beijing), Republic of China (now the People’s Republic of China but the Republic of China is still here it’s just not there anymore)”. Or someone of a certain political bent could put “Born 1980, Taipei, Province of Taiwan, People’s Republic of China”. (That is, the opposite of my first question: _Not_ recognizing a country we _do_. I imagine it would get sent back post-haste.) ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/19 "2004-09-20T16:19:17Z")
The US Government does not recognise Taiwan. Interestingly, however, the Agency Formerly Known As INS does. The quotas which apply (or applied - I think they have got rid of them in recent years?) to certain employment-based green card applicants from China do/did not apply to the Taiwanese. When I was an immigration paralegal, we always filled in “PRC” for country of birth of people born in mainland China. I can’t remember whether we filled in the Taiwaneses’ forms with “Taiwan” or “ROC” (I didn’t have a lot of those clients), but we definitely indicated that they were born there and not in mainland China. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Straight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dec6dc/32.png) [@Enola\_Straight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Straight)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110/20 "2004-09-20T16:39:13Z")
Here’s an interesting scenario: “Balki” is an illegal immigrant from the sovereign island nation of “Caspiar”, located in the Caspian Sea. While here in the U.S. illegaly, the island nation suffers an earthquake and sinks to the bottom of the sea. The I.N.S. ( Immigration and Naturalization Service) arrests him and is charged with the duty of deporting him, aka, returning the alien to the borders of his nation. Since his nation no longer even physically exists, where would the INS deport him? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-a-country-no-longer-exists/265110.md?page=2)