# When America was Great. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2017, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293 "2017-01-16T05:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/21 "2017-01-17T00:01:01Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Norwegian here. > > **College:** You don’t need good grades just to be accepted to college. Many degrees are open to everyone who passed their High School (equivalent) exams. However, there are a number of degrees with a limited number of spaces such as medicine, engineering, law, nursing etc. Generally vocational ones. Entrance for these are competitive, so if you want to be a physician, you better believe you need good grades. > College is practically free, as long as you don’t fail too much you get a grant for living expenses which probably don’t cover them. A loan at very good terms is also available for living expenses. > > Short version: You can go to college as long as you pass high school, but for in-demand degrees you may need good and competitive graders. > > **Healthcare for life** : Yes. > > Buying a home and raising a family: Generally yes, this is available to everyone in permanent employment, even lower-status jobs like cleaner or cashier. However, all countries have cheap and expensive places to live, and the most expensive places and houses will require more than a single low income. > > \*\*Retire: \*\*Yes. Everyone should be able to retire at 67. Some earlier. However, since the pension rules have been changed a couple of times and such changes can’t really be made too retroactive, exactly which rules apply may depend on your year of birth. > > So generally, all those things are available with a minimum of effort, like passing exams and not spending a lot of time unemployed. Also it may be difficult or unachievable for people with some permanent disabilities. > > In general, I feel that the period that America looks back on as “Great” or the golden age were caused mostly by the rest of the world being shattered by WW2 and buying American to recover. I agree with pretty much all you’ve said, and also with Lantern. Things are still petty damn good here. But people don’t want to accept that the days of the factory town are gone. The factories are much more high tech, more likely to be located near urban centers, and not interested in you if you dropped out at 17. I do believe, however, that we may be seeing a permanent disenfranchisement of the lowest 15%. I know factory jobs here that require a 4 year degree. But statistics tell us that some significant portion of the population will be born dumb. And I don’t intend that as cruel, but there seem to be those who think we can all be educated into doctors and engineers. And it seems that the jobs available for that bottom-most slice just keep getting worse. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/22 "2017-01-17T00:07:05Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > Buy a home, take a vacation once a year (the mountains or the ocean, or to your little cabin on the lake), and you could send the smartest of your kids to college. The smartest of your boy kids, that is. :dubious: And back When America Was Great, people could “correct” their children however they wished, usually by beating them into submission and/or until they left visible injuries. :mad: (Wives, too in some cases.) ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/23 "2017-01-19T00:52:24Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > But statistics tell us that some significant portion of the population will be born dumb. And I don’t intend that as cruel, but there seem to be those who think we can all be educated into doctors and engineers. And it seems that the jobs available for that bottom-most slice just keep getting worse. Some are born dumb, some have dumbness thrust upon them, and some, through hard work, acquire dumbness. On one hand, it’s only been the past 25 years or so that the need for a degree has become a requirement for all sorts of jobs that don’t really warrant it. As a result we’ve got people unemployed/underemployed because they can’t handle the academic necessities required to be in school until age 22, or impoverished because they can (at least in the US). On the other hand, people who are ‘dumb’ are being discouraged from trade and vocational schools because their parents/society look down on people who work with their hands. On the gripping hand the ‘dumb’ factory job which built the middle class in North America is gone, and many don’t know how to cope. The simple fact is that jobs flow to the lowest paid. They always have. Because of cheap transportation, that no longer means the next town, but rather anywhere around the world. That, more than anything else, is what the West is struggling to comprehend. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/24 "2017-01-19T01:03:04Z")
Best Chris Farley voice here: “Remember when those guys landed on the moon?..That was awesome.” ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/25 "2017-01-19T04:48:55Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > By most of the indicators mentioned: access to college education, health insurance, retirement security etc. the best time to be American is right now. It’s true that wages have been stagnant for decades but a lot of that that has to do with the choice of inflation measure and there are good reasons to believe that these wage numbers don’t take into account the benefits of new and improved technologies of which there have been many over the last 40 years. The average American has a higher standard of living today than they have ever had in their history and that’s before we even get into the greater opportunities for women, blacks etc. > > What is true is that there is a significant minority for whom things have gotten worse, particularly working-class white males in the Rust Belt who used to get the kind of stable manufacturing jobs that are no longer available. However that is probably less than 10% of the overall workforce. That is big enough to help explain the Trump phenomenon in a tightly polarized polity but it’s not huge by itself. No, I disagree. Health care - costs keep growing, using the rule of 72 the costs of insurance may double every few years. Health insurance in the 90s was far far cheaper than now. A low deductible plan was reasonably priced. Education - same, prices keep going up far faster than inflation. People need to go into debt now. Jobs - there are fewer jobs relative to the population than in the past. Not only that but they generally have fewer benefits and wages haven’t grown in decades Retirement - pensions are gone. SS still exists though. Income - regressive taxes are up. Real estate is up. Wages are stagnant. It really isn’t a golden age. Right now there are people who do good, but usually they are couples where both have a college degree and a middle class job. For people who do not fit that bill a lot are struggling. Even a lot of couples with dual degrees are having trouble. Life is better for non-whites and women (and gays for that matter). But many people are more economically insecure than in the past for many reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/26 "2017-01-19T07:11:07Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > No, I disagree. > > Health care - costs keep growing, using the rule of 72 the costs of insurance may double every few years. Health insurance in the 90s was far far cheaper than now. A low deductible plan was reasonably priced. > > Education - same, prices keep going up far faster than inflation. People need to go into debt now. > > Jobs - there are fewer jobs relative to the population than in the past. Not only that but they generally have fewer benefits and wages haven’t grown in decades > > Retirement - pensions are gone. SS still exists though. > > Income - regressive taxes are up. Real estate is up. Wages are stagnant. > > It really isn’t a golden age. Right now there are people who do good, but usually they are couples where both have a college degree and a middle class job. For people who do not fit that bill a lot are struggling. Even a lot of couples with dual degrees are having trouble. > > Life is better for non-whites and women (and gays for that matter). But many people are more economically insecure than in the past for many reasons. Health care - You aren’t paying for 1990s-style healthcare. Life expectancy is up, despite our attempts to eat ourselves to death. If you have HIV or cancer, or suffer a heart attack, or need surgery, your chances are a lot better today. But that costs money, and we spread that cost. Education - People choose to go into debt because we sling loans at anyone who asks, and thus there is no pressure to keep costs down. For those who care about cost, there are options. Every school I attended or worked at is now more affordable for poor students than when I was there. We had plenty of students at UVA who transferred after two years at community college. And then there were the ones taking out loans to go there out of state. They didn’t need to do that. Jobs - We have 10,000 people hitting retirement age every day. And people are living longer. And we have more people in college. So come back with some statistics that actually tell us something. Unemployment is unusually low, and U-6 is below average. Stagnation is a myth that we’ve debunked before (see Income, below) Retirement - Good. Pensions impede mobility IME. The one job I had that offered a pension had it vest after five or six years. I’ll take my 401k and IRA any day. Not that pensions were exactly standard for everyone back in the day. Income - Real median after-tax household income increased by 35% 1979-2007 ([PDF](https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/112th-congress-2011-2012/reports/10-25-householdincome0.pdf)). Housing costs are up because people are moving back to the cities and into bigger houses with features we didn’t used to have. We spend less on food and clothing. And more on entertainment. [https://www.bls.gov/opub/uscs/](https://www.bls.gov/opub/uscs/) I don’t know that we’re living in a golden age, but I shudder at the thought of living a 1990 lifestyle with 1990 technology on 1990 income. Never mind that I’d have no SDMB to argue with people on (I hope you value the entertainment I am providing you as much as I value that which you provide me.) ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/27 "2017-01-19T14:28:09Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > I believe this rested on four pillars: > > Get good grades in school and you would accepted to college. (and there was some mechanism to pay for it). > > You had access ti Healthcare for life. > > If you worked hard and saved; you could buy a home and raise a family. > > Then, you could retire. > A few questions then: > > When, if ever, was this possible for most Americans? > > What percentage of Americans can reasonably achieve these four goals now? > > What percentage of Americans have enough money to retire, even at a subsistence level? Well, there was a time when all these things were accessible to most Americans. That is, if you were a man. But women were discouraged from going to college, were on their husband’s healthcare, were fired as soon as they got married or (gasp!) pregnant, and found themselves with no retirement plan. Personally, I’ll take today’s equality over yesterday’s supposed greatness. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/28 "2017-01-19T14:48:10Z")
Speaking from the perspective of being a child in the 40’s…the best time was post war and into the mid sixties. Not, of course because we had an excess of material things – certainly not the explosion of electronics and cars that usually last 3 times as long as in those days, for example – but because we had a life and a country where we expected things to get better for the USA, the world, and for us personally. All things said about if you were smart enough for college you could expect to get a job without hard physical labor are true, etc. etc. The great thing, again, about 1960 was the idea that things were going to get much much better as we worked toward it. Then came the assassinations, the rise of challenges to our economy as the rest of the world recovered from WWII, and the stronger, for a time, threat of nuclear war. Vietnam, Iran, etc… We have never gotten back to the point of believing that we can work hard and thereby make our personal lives and country better. In fact, we are now facing the distinct possibility that our industrial past and present might completely screw up the world and bring back the ice ages and global famine… Make American great again? Start by endorsing every decent idea in the Democratic platform. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/29 "2017-01-19T15:25:43Z")
I wasn’t going to click until I saw this curious exchange: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > But the “most common” answer was only 8% of the vote, so not very meaningful. Elementary graph reading is down the hall, 3rd door on the left, John. 🙂 > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Actually, way over 9% 9.5% Here are the aggregated numbers from that graph, Democrats on the left, Republicans on the right. Before WWII 2.72% 4.35% War Years 0.14% 0.51% Truman Years 3.90% 3.58% Eisenhower Years 4.60% 15.62% 1961-1980 16.34% 17.71% Reagan & Bush-41 17.02% 23.87% Clinton 22.82% 18.58% Bush-43 10.92% 8.18% Obama 21.54% 7.60% The most obvious differences are that Republicans liked the 1950’s and don’t like Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/30 "2017-01-19T16:55:08Z")
Fitting that this bit from Freakonomics hit my feed today: > **[Is the American Dream Really Dead? - Freakonomics](https://freakonomics.com/podcast/is-the-american-dream-really-dead/)** > > Is the American Dream Really Dead? - Freakonomics > [@](#): > > Within America, there are actually a number of places that truly are lands of opportunity, places where kids achieve the American Dream at high rates. In some places, like in Salt Lake City, Utah, or in the Bay Area, something like 13 percent of kids are making it from the bottom fifth to the top fifth. Turns out in the center of the country, like in Iowa, for example, in many areas of Iowa you see more than 15 or 16 percent of kids making it from the bottom fifth to the top fifth. So higher than the numbers we see in the data for Canada and for Scandinavian countries. But at the other end of the spectrum, you take places like Atlanta, Georgia; or Charlotte, North Carolina; or much of the southeast of the U.S., and you have rates of upward mobility below four-and-a-half percent. Lower than any country for which we currently have data Good post (and there is a lot more to it than the quota above). ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/31 "2017-01-19T18:36:43Z")
Just looking at college, [this page](http://www.drduru.com/money/090511_UnemployedWithoutCollegeDegree.htm), near the bottom, has a plot of % of Americans \>25 yr age who have completed college. It has improved steadily, from 5% in 1940 to ~30% now. ---
**Author:** ![Lantern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d26b3c/32.png) [@Lantern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lantern)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/32 "2017-01-19T18:58:27Z")
A few less well-known data series in the US: [Percentage of households with air-conditioning](http://www.heritage.org/~/media/images/reports/2011/07/b2575/b2575_chart4.ashx?w=400&h=533&as=1) [Average area of US house](http://houstontomorrow.org/images/uploads/story-images/HousingSizeVsFamilySize_CityLab-AmericanEnterpriseInstitute.png) [Traffic fatalities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_safety_in_the_United_States#/media/File:USA_annual_VMT_vs_deaths_per_VMT.png) [Workplace fatalities](http://coyoteblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Workplace-Fatalities-since-1933.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/33 "2017-01-19T20:26:09Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > [Average area of US house](http://houstontomorrow.org/images/uploads/story-images/HousingSizeVsFamilySize_CityLab-AmericanEnterpriseInstitute.png) I’ve never been able to track down sizes of current housing. This and others always look at new housing. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/34 "2017-01-19T20:51:04Z")
When was America perceived to be Great? Probably during the Eisenhower expansion years, when the Depression, and the War, and then the Korean War were finally over, there was work for everyone who wanted it, the economy was on a roll (partly due to massive military spending) and it seemed that the good times might last forever. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/35 "2017-01-19T21:19:30Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > A few less well-known data series in the US: > > [Percentage of households with air-conditioning](http://www.heritage.org/~/media/images/reports/2011/07/b2575/b2575_chart4.ashx?w=400&h=533&as=1) > > [Average area of US house](http://houstontomorrow.org/images/uploads/story-images/HousingSizeVsFamilySize_CityLab-AmericanEnterpriseInstitute.png) > > [Traffic fatalities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_safety_in_the_United_States#/media/File:USA_annual_VMT_vs_deaths_per_VMT.png) > > [Workplace fatalities](http://coyoteblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Workplace-Fatalities-since-1933.jpg) The first one is based on data from HUD. Not to worry- we won’t have any data going forward when HUD is eliminated. So if we regress in this area, we’ll never know, so we can ASSUME we’re great. 4th one shows a drop after the job-killing red tape of the occupational health and safety act was passed. After this act is repealed, we can go back to when America was great, and more people were killed on the job. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/36 "2017-01-19T23:15:22Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Income - Real median after-tax household income increased by 35% 1979-2007 ([PDF](https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/112th-congress-2011-2012/reports/10-25-householdincome0.pdf)). Housing costs are up because people are moving back to the cities and into bigger houses with features we didn’t used to have. We spend less on food and clothing. And more on entertainment. [https://www.bls.gov/opub/uscs/](https://www.bls.gov/opub/uscs/) That statistic hides one of the more insidious aspects of how things have gotten worse. “Household income” is up, but now it takes _two_ people to earn that household income where it used to take one. So, our households are making 35% more, great. But if it takes twice as many people working to get that 35% improvement, is it really an improvement? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/37 "2017-01-19T23:26:58Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > That statistic hides one of the more insidious aspects of how things have gotten worse. “Household income” is up, but now it takes _two_ people to earn that household income where it used to take one. So, our households are making 35% more, great. But if it takes twice as many people working to get that 35% improvement, is it really an improvement? What was the average number of workers per household in 1979 vs 2007? Surely it didn’t go from 1.0 to 2.0. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2017, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/38 "2017-01-19T23:57:22Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > What was the average number of workers per household in 1979 vs 2007? Surely it didn’t go from 1.0 to 2.0. Here is the percent of households where both husband and wife work: Year % Both Working 2016 : 51% 2015 : 51% 2014s : 51% 2013 : 52% 2012 : 52% 2011r : 53% 2011 : 53% 2010 : 54% 2009 : 55% 2008 : 55% 2007 : 55% 2006 : 55% 2005 : 54% 2004 : 55% 2003 : 56% 2002 : 56% 2001 : 56% 2000 : 56% 1999 : 56% 1998 : 56% 1997 : 57% 1996 : 56% 1995 : 56% 1994 : 55% 1993 : 54% 1992 : 55% 1991 : 54% 1990 : 54% 1989 : 53% 1988 : 52% 1987 : 51% 1986 : 50% Source: [http://www.census.gov/hhes/families/data/families.html](http://www.census.gov/hhes/families/data/families.html) ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/39 "2017-01-20T00:41:04Z")
Well, there you go. I was mistaken. Another “commonly known fact” corrected. Thanks for fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2017, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293/40 "2017-01-20T01:10:44Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > When, if ever, was this possible for most Americans? From 10:17 AM (EST) to 10:43 AM on March 7, 1962 all the things you mentioned were available to the majority (50.3%) of Americans. Before then and ever since the percentage has been under 50%. Those were the Good Ol’ Minutes! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-america-was-great/777293.md?page=3)