# When and why did Calcutta become Kolkata? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 19, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356 "2003-10-19T13:41:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/21 "2003-10-20T11:35:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > Bwahahahahahahaahahahahaha Well, such was my assumption, anyway :). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/22 "2003-10-20T12:17:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*I’ve always had a theory that the English pronunciation of certain Chinese words and names is such because it was filtered through the medium of Cantonese (due to trade connections in HK, Canton and Macau) - the Canto pronunciation of Beijing being close to “Bak-ging”, which is a hell of a lot more like “Peking” than “Beijing” is. On reading this thread, I am prepared to admit I’m full of gau-si. \*\* I’d advise reading about the Wade-Giles system of transliteration. It was in no way “filtered through Cantonese”. The letter “K” in Wade-Giles was sincerely intended to represent the sound which in Pinyin is “j”. Thus we have Peking - Beijing, and Tao Te King - Daodejing. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/23 "2003-10-20T12:58:18Z")
As for **when** : according to the Indian Embassy in Washington D.C., the name was officially changed in December of 2000. I ran across this while doing research for my column on the Black Hole of Calcutta/Kolkata. [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mblackhole.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mblackhole.html) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/24 "2003-10-20T13:03:32Z")
I concede incorrectness of theory. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/25 "2003-10-20T14:24:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Kolkotta is the state capital of West Bengal, and Bengalis have always called the city Kolkotta. No, Bengalis have never called the city “Kolkotta.” The pronunciation is closer to the current spelling, “Kolkata.” It’s an “ah,” not an “o,” and it’s a single “t.” > [@](#): > > The name change is reflective of that as much as it is an attempt to shrug off the city’s colonial legacy. The motivations for the name change are numerous and complex and more related to local politics than to cultural pride. > [@](#): > > The name ‘Calcutta’ probably came about from a British inability to ponounce the name as it was meant to be. Let’s please shrug off this notion of “inability.” It was the Anglicised pronunciation of _some word_. Which word it was is not precisely known, although the most widely accepted theory is that the original word was “Kalighat” (the step of Kali), which is still the name of an important place in the city. If so, then the Anglicized pronunciation “Calcutta” is no more “wrong” (and perhaps less so) than the Bengali pronuncation “Kolkata.” ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/26 "2003-10-20T15:46:34Z")
For what it’s worth, when I was in India a couple of years ago my hosts referred to a city named Kolkata (pronounced Koll’ kah tah, with the emphasis on the first syllable). Since in the U.S. I had always heard it referred to as Calcutta (Kal kut’ ah), it took quite a while before I understood that Kolkata and Calcutta were the same city. And everyone (all my Indian hosts) referred to Madras (old name) as Channai (new name), yet they also referred to Bombay as Bombay rather than the new name of Mumbai. (The company I worked for at the time had offices in both Channai and Mumbai. We were encouraged by the HR department to use these new names. I found that a bit puzzling since the people who actually lived there didn’t consistently use the new names.) As far as Peking/Beijing is concerned, I _never_ hear Peking anymore in the U.S. Everyone says Beijing. Not sure when the change came, but I think it started with the newscasters. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/27 "2003-10-20T16:24:37Z")
It seems to me that the Pinyin system is not good for native English speakers. So far as I am concerned, “b” is _not_ a good transliteration for an unaspirated [p]. In that sense, Wade-Giles seems much better. So far as Indian name changes goes, the postal service announced a couple of years ago (soon after the Mumbai and Chennai changes, I believe) that it would not recognise any further name changes for the purpose of addressing letters. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/28 "2003-10-20T16:32:14Z")
> [@](#): > > For what it’s worth, when I was in India a couple of years ago my hosts referred to a city named Kolkata (pronounced Koll’ kah tah, with the emphasis on the first syllable). Since in the U.S. I had always heard it referred to as Calcutta (Kal kut’ ah), it took quite a while before I understood that Kolkata and Calcutta were the same city. I’m suprised. In Calcutta itself, Calcutta and Kolkata are used interchangeably in conversation and in writing (that is, as has been noted before, where it isn’t simply shortened to “Cal”). The tendency is to use “Calcutta” when speaking English and “Kolkata” when speaking Bengali, although this rule is not consistently applied. Only for official and formal purposes (like news broadcasts) is “Kolkata” stuck to consistently. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/29 "2003-10-20T16:56:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by acsenray \* > It seems to me that the Pinyin system is not good for native English speakers. So far as I am concerned, “b” is _not_ a good transliteration for an unaspirated [p]. In that sense, Wade-Giles seems much better. Pinyin was invented for the benefit of the Chinese people. It is not intended for English speakers. The values of some letters (like Q) have nothing to do with thier values in English or other Western languages. Not to mention that English is possibly the worst representative of the values given to the Latin alphabet and Spanish, Italian and Romanina would be much more representative. The B in Beijing sounds like a B to me but B and P are so close that they can be mistaken and even exchanged sometimes. It sems to me a P is a B with a bit more force in the “explosive part”. Try reading the following out aloud to someone and tell them to write it down: “I need a drink. I think I’ll go down to the par”. I doubt anyone would pick on the P in par. They will hear a B. The capital of Formosa is variously spelled as Taipei or Taibei. Taibei is correct hanyu pinyin (the same bei = north). I do not think you can tell the difference by pronouncing it with a P or with a B. They sound practically the same. Individual accents and regional variations produce wider variety of pronunciations than the subtle difference between P and B in Beijing. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/30 "2003-10-20T18:44:46Z")
I’d dearly love to see a citation, sailor, that Pinyin was invented for the benefit of the Chinese–especially since the Chinese are kind of into writing Chinese in Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/31 "2003-10-20T22:40:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > I’d dearly love to see a citation, sailor, that Pinyin was invented for the benefit of the Chinese–especially since the Chinese are kind of into writing Chinese in Chinese. What makes you believe otherwise? Do you really think the chinese developed pinyin for the benefit of Americans? It was developed in the 1950s. Do you really think it was developed to help Americans? Pinyin is the last of several attempts to replace Chinese characters with a phonetic alphabet with the purpose of simplyfing reading. [http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/chinese/aspect/history.html](http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/chinese/aspect/history.html) It was developed in the 1950s and officially adopted in 1958. The Lonely Planet guide says: > [@](#): > > The original idea was to eventually do away with Chinese characters. However, tradition dies hard and the idea has been abandoned. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/32 "2003-10-21T04:59:34Z")
To continue the hijack Sailor, I’m going to have to disagree on Taipei versus Taibei. If one pronounces “Taipei” on the mainland, few if any people will know what you’re talking about. However, pronounced “Taibei” and most people will know it’s the capital of Taiwan. I personally cringe each and every time I hear someone pronounce it Taipei. Not quite sure how one can think that B and P are interchangeable sounds. “The big bee went back of the bar” or “The pig pea went pack of the par.” ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/33 "2003-10-21T05:48:11Z")
Using locals to determain pronounciation may be difficult. After all did you ever hear a person from The Bronx or Brooklyn pronounce New York? ---
**Author:** ![Dragonblink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Dragonblink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragonblink)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/34 "2003-10-21T06:52:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*It sems to me a P is a B with a bit more force in the “explosive part”. \*\* Actually, to be precise, the difference is one of voicing. Your vocal cords vibrate when you say a B, but not when you say a P. Complicating matters for English speakers is the fact that when a P comes at the beginning of a word it is always aspirated – note the difference between the P in pot and the P in spot. There are many languages where the presence or absence of aspiration on a letter can change the meaning of a word, much like how in English the voicing makes the difference between a par and a bar. I’ve heard someone slowly speak words whose only difference was a lack of aspiration on the P that started it – the P did sound more like a B compared to P’s I’m used to starting words, but more like a P when compared to an actual B. – Dragonblink, Linguistics Major Extraordinaire. ---
**Author:** ![Dragonblink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Dragonblink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragonblink)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/35 "2003-10-21T06:54:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dragonblink \* > **when a P comes at the beginning of a word it is always aspirated** Eek! I mean, when it comes at the beginning of an _English_ word, when spoken by a native speaker of most dialects. ---
**Author:** ![Kegg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Kegg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kegg)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/36 "2003-10-21T07:31:41Z")
UNUMONDO-Wade-giles is used for gwau-eu (mandarin). The system for cantonese is yale, or yale modifyied. THere for in cantonese it is pronounced bak-eing (or close) * * * Spelling and grammer subject to change with out notice I told you the spelling may change!! ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/37 "2003-10-21T08:23:17Z")
**sailor** , I think you might be thinking of [_zhuyin_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuyin#History). > [@](#): > > the national phonetic system of the Republic of China (based on Taiwan) for teaching the Chinese languages, especially Mandarin to illiterate Mandarin-speaking children According to [this page](http://www.lsa.umich.edu/asian/chinese/online/pinyin-history.html) at the University of Michigan: > [@](#): > > [Pinyin] is yet another attempt at teaching Chinese pronunciation to foreigners That’s not to say that Pinyin hasn’t proved tremendously useful to China since its adoption (postal sorting, computer data entry), but I don’t think that was the primary reason for its existence. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/38 "2003-10-21T11:25:07Z")
**jjim** , that page can say whatever it wants but all the evidence I have and common sense tell me that Hanyu Pinyin was not developed for teaching foreigners. Just think about it. In 1949 the Communist revolution finally succeeds in China after years of struggles and civil war. The new Communist government starts developing and implementing revolutionary policies of change. And one of them is to develop a system of writing to help foreigners learn Chinese? Come on! This was a time when China practically shut itself off from the world. It closed all its embassies abroad. I cannot believe they were interested in teaching English tio any foreigners. Russian experts were coming to China in droves to help the new government in every aspect. Russian experts recommended simplifying the writing system and, in fact, first proposed they adopt the cyrillic alphabet but the Chinese decided to adopt the Latin alphabet as more suitable. Still, Hanyu Pinyin was developed with the help and advice of Russian experts. Are you telling me the circumstances would lead you to believe it was done for the benefit of foreigners? What foreigners? It makes no sense to me. It makes much more sense to me to believe the communist government wanted to simplify and rationalize the writing just like they were doing with their sweeping reforms in every other field. Hanyu Pinyin did not finally replace Chinese characters for the same reason the metric system did not replace the American system of units. Custom dies hard. Replacing the old system of writing would require several generations being equally familiar with both. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/39 "2003-10-21T15:11:04Z")
Istanbul was once Constantinople. Seems rather Byzantine to me. Peace, moriah of Pahree and Moonchin. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356/40 "2003-10-21T15:18:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dragonblink \* > \*\*There are many languages where the presence or absence of aspiration on a letter can change the meaning of a word, much like how in English the voicing makes the difference between a par and a bar. > > I’ve heard someone slowly speak words whose only difference was a lack of aspiration on the P that started it – the P did sound more like a B compared to P’s I’m used to starting words, but more like a P when compared to an actual B. > > – Dragonblink, Linguistics Major Extraordinaire. \*\* Thai has a three-way distinction in its stop consonants: voiceless aspirated /p[sup]h[/sup]/, voiceless unaspirated /p/, voiced unaspirated /b/. It all depends on when the stop’s closure is released compared to when the vocal cords begin to vibrate. If the vocal cord vibrations begin after the closure is released, the result is a voiceless aspirate. If the vocal cord vibrations begin roughly simultaneously with the closure release, the result is a voiceless non-aspirate. If the vocal cord vibrations begin before the closure is released, the result is a voiced non-aspirate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-and-why-did-calcutta-become-kolkata/208356.md?page=3)