# When bigotry ends **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 19, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609 "2016-01-19T19:38:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![piepiepie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@piepiepie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/piepiepie)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/41 "2016-01-20T23:03:18Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > As above, the general concept of majority culture doesn’t need further explanation, and the specifics of what constitutes the majority culture at this time (if this is what you’re asking) are irrelevant to the discussion. > > I have nothing further to add. Of course you don’t. Let me make this more personal, then. Can you possibly find it in your heart to expand on what “majority culture” means so that I, a black woman in a same-sex relationship, can know what it would take to end the bigotry I face? For the purpose of this thread. I would be ever so grateful. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/42 "2016-01-20T23:24:58Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But the general point is that the more distinctive and separate a given subculture is, the more bigotry they’ll encounter (all else being equal). I’m not sure I agree with that. For instance, Jews in Nazi Germany were quite assimilated. And if a guy who is clearly Japanese-American shows up to interview for a job, it’s not like the interviewer can tell whether this guy has children named Bob and Mary vs Osamu and Tetsuki. A lack of assimilation can certainly help keep a group distinctly different, but for some groups, different is just different, for some, different is hated and inferior, and I’m not sure what factors really determine that. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2016, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/43 "2016-01-20T23:45:02Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I’m not sure I agree with that. For instance, Jews in Nazi Germany were quite assimilated. I said “all else being equal” in an earlier post. Germany was never a melting pot in the American sense, so it was pretty much Jews and Germans and left even assimilated Jews more identifiable, and there was an intense nationalistic backlash to the loss of WWI which put the Jews in a bad position. (Though FWIW, I believe Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf that his first intensely anti-Semitic feelings came to him when he encountered a non-assimilated Eastern-European Jew.) > [@](#): > > And if a guy who is clearly Japanese-American shows up to interview for a job, it’s not like the interviewer can tell whether this guy has children named Bob and Mary vs Osamu and Tetsuki. That’s true. And it goes beyond any individual person too. Even if a specific person is more assimilated, he will face more bigotry if he’s a member of a group which as a group tends to be more dissimilar than if he’s part of a group which as a group tends to blend in. It’s part of human nature to be suspicious of “others”. But what exactly constitutes “others” can vary and is not completely controlled by any individual member of that group. Once your group is “those people” then you’re going to be viewed with more suspicion than another person who is not a member of a “those people” type group, even if you personally don’t share all the common identifying aspects of “those people”. > [@](#): > > A lack of assimilation can certainly help keep a group distinctly different, but for some groups, different is just different I agree with this. But my earlier point was: “_the general point is that the more distinctive and separate a given subculture is, the more bigotry they’ll encounter (all else being equal). For this reason, the OP’s comparison of current bigotry to historical examples which have faded with time is not a valid comparison._” ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/44 "2016-01-21T15:58:09Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The best way would be to look into our subconscious minds. When [implicit bias tests](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit-association_test) show null results for a particular group, then we can conclude that bigotry against that group no longer exists in a meaningful way. > > I’m guessing that very few Americans would show implicit bias against, say, people with Irish surnames. But the bias js probably tremenduous against Hispanics or Middle Easterners. > > Also, when Robert White’s resume gets tossed in the circular file at the same frequency as the identical resume with Keisha Black’s name on it, then we will know we’ve reached the promised land. The implicit bias test is way oversold as a tool. It is not known whether it actually works to measure anything. [pdf](http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/faculty/ReassessingPredictiveValidityoftheIAT.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/45 "2016-01-21T16:05:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > For blacks, I would look at poverty rate and incarceration rate as two of the most important indicators. When the poverty rate and incarceration rate for blacks is at rough parity with whites, then I think we will have solved most of the problem with racism towards blacks. Incarceration rates make poor indicators. For example, men have ten times the incarceration rates that women do. Is it because society is even more bigoted against men than it is against blacks, or is it because men commit more crimes? Incarceration rates for race and sex both are reflection of criminality rates not about how society feels about a group. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/46 "2016-01-21T16:38:02Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Incarceration rates for race and sex both are reflection of criminality rates not about how society feels about a group. Has this always been true, or just recently? In 1850, or 1890, or 1940, were differing incarceration rates and treatment of black people by the justice system just a reflection of criminality, or did societal racism and discriminatory policies and practices have anything to do with it? If racism and discrimination were involved in the past, how are you certain that they are no longer involved in differences in incarceration rates? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/47 "2016-01-21T16:47:42Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I assume he’s saying that another possible explanation is that it’s due to economic or historical factors. For instance, if most Vietnamese-Americans came here as extremely poor boat people immigrants a generation ago, but they faced zero racism, you’d still expect them to be poorer than average. This is a correct interpretation of what I posted. That why I mentioned things like the wage gap between men and women - it exists, but is not (for the most part) due to bigotry against women. It was also the point I was making in mentioning being raised by a single parent, which correlates to all kinds of negative outcomes for blacks as well as whites. The main point was to argue against **Little Nemo** ’s apparent assertion that the only possible explanation for the disparate rates of incarceration of blacks vs. whites was either racism, or genetic inferiority. That is an obvious false dilemma. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/48 "2016-01-21T18:44:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If you are saying the only two possible explanations for disparate poverty and incarceration rates are 1) racism or 2) genetics, I can’t see why that would be true. What makes you think that those are the only two possibilities? Nature and nurture. What’s the other alternative you see? Either black people and white people are essentially the same, in which case any differences between the overall experiences of black people and white people are explained by social phenomena. Or black people and white people have inherent differences that will never change regardless of how society changes. So which idea do you support? Do you feel black people and white people are fundamentally the same or fundamentally different? I’ll go first and say that I think they’re fundamentally the same. What’s your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/49 "2016-01-21T18:49:26Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I assume he’s saying that another possible explanation is that it’s due to economic or historical factors. For instance, if most Vietnamese-Americans came here as extremely poor boat people immigrants a generation ago, but they faced zero racism, you’d still expect them to be poorer than average. Maybe this is just an issue of semantics then. If society has one set of economic and historical factors for black people and a different set of economic and historical factors for white people, then that’s what I (and a lot of other people) would call racism. It’s treating people of one race differently, for good or bad, than you treat people of another race. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/50 "2016-01-21T18:52:37Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Incarceration rates make poor indicators. For example, men have ten times the incarceration rates that women do. Is it because society is even more bigoted against men than it is against blacks, or is it because men commit more crimes? > Incarceration rates for race and sex both are reflection of criminality rates not about how society feels about a group. Are you arguing that the reason black people have a higher incarceration rate is because there’s just something about black people that makes them commit crimes? And you feel that isn’t a racist statement? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/51 "2016-01-21T23:27:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Maybe this is just an issue of semantics then. If society has one set of economic and historical factors for black people and a different set of economic and historical factors for white people, then that’s what I (and a lot of other people) would call racism. It’s treating people of one race differently, for good or bad, than you treat people of another race. Look, I don’t know why I’m suddenly defending Shodan, who I basically never agree with on anything. But there are at least two entirely reasonable possibilities: (1) Racism existed in the past, but no longer does, but its effects are still being felt (2) Group X started out from a worse place for totally non-racist factors, and the effects of that starting place are still being felt (ie, a bunch of Vietnamese boat people came over and started out dirt poor… they faced no racism, but the fact that they were all dirt poor 40 years ago is still being felt) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/52 "2016-01-22T03:29:16Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/53 "2016-01-22T03:40:01Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > …But there are at least two entirely reasonable possibilities: > > (1) Racism existed in the past, but no longer does… That is hard for me to accept as being “entirely reasonable”. Doesn’t _exist_? Wow. > [@](#): > > …but its effects are still being felt… How would we sort the _effects_ of racism from racism itself? Signed, Perplexed in Minnesota ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/54 "2016-01-22T12:52:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Nature and nurture. What’s the other alternative you see? > > Either black people and white people are essentially the same, in which case any differences between the overall experiences of black people and white people are explained by social phenomena. Or black people and white people have inherent differences that will never change regardless of how society changes. > > So which idea do you support? Do you feel black people and white people are fundamentally the same or fundamentally different? I’ll go first and say that I think they’re fundamentally the same. What’s your opinion? My opinion is that you are trying to define anything whatever that leads to differences between groups as “racism”. I think that is a mistake. Again, take the example of the wage disparity between men and women. Is it caused entirely by sexism? Is it possible that any part of the disparity is caused by something that isn’t sexism? > [@MaxtheVool](#): > > Group X started out from a worse place for totally non-racist factors, and the effects of that starting place are still being felt (ie, a bunch of Vietnamese boat people came over and started out dirt poor… they faced no racism, but the fact that they were all dirt poor 40 years ago is still being felt) I think the idea is to say that, when it comes to black people, there are no totally non-racist factors. The idea that cultural factors might drive differences is a bit more of a difficult sell, which might be why **Little Nemo** is trying so hard to interpret anything said as “you are saying that blacks are genetically inferior”. It’s a pity, but there you go. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/55 "2016-01-22T13:59:35Z")
Racism still exists, especially against African-Americans, but to some extent against pretty much any easily identifiable group. From a societal and public policy perspective, it seems to me that the only racism worth worrying about is the kind that causes substantial impact and harm to the affected group. Such as sentencing disparities. And we need to get the whole “microaggression” and “whitesplaining” stuff out of the public discourse. If we’re truly going to get upset about those two things then racism is truly no longer a problem. But it actually still is, it’s just that minorities who are well off experience more of the “I’ve just been subtly slighted” racism, whereas minorities who are not well off experience more of the real deal. And guess which people get to drive the debate? Overly sensitive college students, although Black Lives Matter has done a good job of bringing the real issues back into the forefront. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/56 "2016-01-22T14:11:05Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Look, I don’t know why I’m suddenly defending Shodan, who I basically never agree with on anything. But there are at least two entirely reasonable possibilities: > > (1) Racism existed in the past, but no longer does, but its effects are still being felt > (2) Group X started out from a worse place for totally non-racist factors, and the effects of that starting place are still being felt (ie, a bunch of Vietnamese boat people came over and started out dirt poor… they faced no racism, but the fact that they were all dirt poor 40 years ago is still being felt) Or, more likely, a modified combination of the two. There were always multiple factors involved, and the residual effect of all these factors is still being felt (along with various factors that continue to exist or have arisen). At one point racism was a very big factor (and drove a lot of the others). At this point, racism is a much much smaller factor, though it too continues to exist. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/57 "2016-01-22T14:56:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Has this always been true, or just recently? In 1850, or 1890, or 1940, were differing incarceration rates and treatment of black people by the justice system just a reflection of criminality, or did societal racism and discriminatory policies and practices have anything to do with it? If racism and discrimination were involved in the past, how are you certain that they are no longer involved in differences in incarceration rates? Incarceration rates are not available before 1926, that I could find. If you look at incarceration rates as proxies for racism you would think that it was much more of a problem in the 80s and 90s than in the past. In 1926 which was only two years after the infamous Klanbake convention and was a time where anti-lynching laws could not be passed in the senate, black prisoners made up 21% of prison inmates. That is much lower than the current 37%. So unless you think the 1920s was a time of great racial equality, then it makes sense to discard incarceration rates as a measure of racism. Since most crimes are committed against people of the same race the lower incarceration rates of the past seem to indicate racism as white law enforcement personnel did not enforce laws in black communities since the crime victims were likely to be black and not worth protecting. If that is true then the current higher incarceration rates show that racism is less of a problem then in the past. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/58 "2016-01-22T15:04:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you arguing that the reason black people have a higher incarceration rate is because there’s just something about black people that makes them commit crimes? > > And you feel that isn’t a racist statement? It is a fact that men commit more crimes than women, it is not sexist to point out facts. It is a fact that blacks commit more crimes than whites who commit more crimes than asians, it is not racist to point out facts. It is my theory that unwillingness of the police in the past to protect black crime victims led to something like an honor culture in the black community which leads to higher crime rates. If you have good evidence for another theory it would be interesting to hear. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/59 "2016-01-22T15:43:04Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Incarceration rates are not available before 1926, that I could find. If you look at incarceration rates as proxies for racism you would think that it was much more of a problem in the 80s and 90s than in the past. In 1926 which was only two years after the infamous Klanbake convention and was a time where anti-lynching laws could not be passed in the senate, black prisoners made up 21% of prison inmates. That is much lower than the current 37%. So unless you think the 1920s was a time of great racial equality, then it makes sense to discard incarceration rates as a measure of racism. The black population in 1926 was also a significantly smaller portion of the US (about 30% smaller) than it is today, relatively speaking (it was about 9% of the US in the 20s, and now it’s about 13%). I don’t think incarceration rates are a direct measure of racism, but the fact that black incarceration rates are significantly higher than their share of the population (and were in the past as well, in a time in which massive societal and institutional racism were pretty undeniable), is a pretty clear sign to me that racism and discrimination are still significant factors. > [@](#): > > Since most crimes are committed against people of the same race the lower incarceration rates of the past seem to indicate racism as white law enforcement personnel did not enforce laws in black communities since the crime victims were likely to be black and not worth protecting. > If that is true then the current higher incarceration rates show that racism is less of a problem then in the past. I think racism is less of problem now then in the past, but I think it’s still a significant problem, and I think the disparities in incarceration rates are an indicator that the problem still exists. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609/60 "2016-01-22T15:47:53Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It is a fact that men commit more crimes than women, it is not sexist to point out facts. > It is a fact that blacks commit more crimes than whites who commit more crimes than asians, it is not racist to point out facts. > It is my theory that unwillingness of the police in the past to protect black crime victims led to something like an honor culture in the black community which leads to higher crime rates. If you have good evidence for another theory it would be interesting to hear. I think there are multiple reasons – black children are probably far more likely to see their parents mistreated by police, so are far more likely to grow up with the idea that police officers are “the enemy”; some police officers might be more likely to treat black people as though they are criminals (whether they are or not); black children probably are less likely to have access to the kinds of social institutions (good school environments, well organized sports and clubs, libraries and safe places to play/explore, etc.) that help kids avoid negative paths; and probably many more. Many of these are not directly attributable to racism (as in the actions of a cop due to racist feelings for black people), but they are probably attributable to systemic and institutional problems due to past (or still existing) racism and discriminatory policies and practices. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-bigotry-ends/743609.md?page=4)