# When both the trial drug and placebo are effective **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** science-math\ **Created:** [May 23, 2024, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-both-the-trial-drug-and-placebo-are-effective/1001935 "2024-05-23T01:19:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2024, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-both-the-trial-drug-and-placebo-are-effective/1001935/21 "2024-05-25T22:37:58Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > Pain is a very objective measure. Huh? To me it is subjective, having lived with arthritis pain most of my adult life. How does one objectively measure pain? > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I believe in placebos. I take vitamin C when i have a cold. Hey, it might help, and it’s pretty harmless. My prior doctor recommended glucosamine and chondroitin for knee pain. I asked her about studies that showed it didn’t work. Some studies show that glucosamine and chondroitin did work. My Doctors opinion is that- they work on some but not all. And Vit C can somewhat/slightly reduce the symptoms and duration of a cold. Okay, not a big deal, but as you said- harmless- and it prevents scurvy absolutely 100%. 🤪 > [@Treppenwitz](#): > > These are described as a validated assessment tool. I have no idea what this means, and have never managed to obtain an explanation of how this could be done, especially as pain reporting has to be subjective. Certainly subjective- and what is a 9 to one patient, might be a six to another. > [@eschrodinger](#): > > A drug that does no better than the placebo in a study, but both drug and placebo groups show marked improvement over a no treatment group does not mean that you could give literal sugar pills and have the same improvement because " it’s all in their heads." Because of course the medical professional must be caring and convince the patient it will work. You cant just take a sugar pill and - BAM! placebo. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2024, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-both-the-trial-drug-and-placebo-are-effective/1001935/22 "2024-05-25T23:07:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Zyada](#): > > > > Pain is a very objective measure. > > Huh? To me it is subjective, having lived with arthritis pain most of my adult life. How does one objectively measure pain? D’oh! I meant subjective. Stupid brain. 😳 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2024, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-both-the-trial-drug-and-placebo-are-effective/1001935/23 "2024-05-26T01:12:19Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > D’oh! I meant subjective. Stupid brain. You should see the amount of “spell check cant fix that” boo-boos I make here. 😀 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2024, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-both-the-trial-drug-and-placebo-are-effective/1001935/24 "2024-05-26T05:34:54Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > So should I advise my 97 year old mother to massage a bit of vegetable oil into her knees daily (if she can do herself, or she could get help)? She has terrible knee pain and is obviously no longer a candidate for knee replacement surgery (which she considered when younger but did not get due to fear of both post surgical pain and pain meds). As I understand it (not a doctor) the best suggestion for her would vary, depending on the cause of the pain. Pain itself is a symptom of any number of possible causes, and not a disease itself. Assuming degeneration of the cartilage, I understand that building up the muscles around the joint may be able to help, so there’s more meat scaffolding the area and holding the bones away from one another. > **[Take control of your knee pain - Harvard Health](https://www.health.harvard.edu/pain/take-control-of-your-knee-pain)** > > Regular exercise and stretching can reduce knee pain related to some common conditions. Exercises that strengthen muscle groups in the upper and lower legs, hips, and core can help them better supp... That being said, I’m a little skeptical of the specific movements given in that link. The leg lifts seem to be things that would build muscles around the hip area, not the knee area? (Any doctors, feel free to comment.) To me, it seems like you would want to work the muscles connected to the knee (e.g. the sartorius) in a way that would not pull away from the joint rather than pushing into it. For example: [https://youtu.be/qSV9jWeYVEY?si=vF1Wwq7fMy8qsYub&t=28](https://youtu.be/qSV9jWeYVEY?si=vF1Wwq7fMy8qsYub&t=28) See also: [https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4dsLCsmm4AE](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/4dsLCsmm4AE) Consult with her doctor before acting on anything I’ve written. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2024, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-both-the-trial-drug-and-placebo-are-effective/1001935/25 "2024-05-26T06:42:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You should see the amount of “spell check **cant** fix that” boo-boos I make here. The irony… (Bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2024, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-both-the-trial-drug-and-placebo-are-effective/1001935/26 "2024-06-10T19:03:31Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > BBC _Horizon_ has done some episodes on placebos. Here’s [one](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6vbq52) with Dr. Michael Mosely from 2018. (He’s one of my favorite British medical presenters.) Just a few weeks later and … whoa. Mosely was on a Greek island and went for a hike last Wednesday. They found his [body](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/body-believed-to-be-michael-mosley-missing-british-doctor-and-tv-presenter-found-on-greek-island/) 4 days later. Apparently got lost, high heat, barren countryside, etc. I wonder if his regimen had something to do with it. He liked things like 2:5 fasting to prolong life. If he was fasting when he went on this hike it may have contributed to shortening his life instead. Like I said, he was one of my favorite British medical presenters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-both-the-trial-drug-and-placebo-are-effective/1001935.md?page=1)