# When can police lawfully order you out of your car **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 9, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882 "2014-10-09T17:40:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/21 "2014-10-10T12:10:06Z")
I was given a speeding ticket in Idaho with an Ontario drivers’ license, and all the guy did was write me a ticket. Whereas an elderly lady from Idaho mentioned that she would detour around Oregon (1980’s) since she hadn’t paid a ticket from there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/22 "2014-10-10T12:58:54Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > The stop itself is not an arrest. But an arrest can be made even on minor traffic violations. The stop itself is a detainment, falling under a subset of Terry. Absolutely correct… unless a state has some statute to the contrary, of course. But you’re right that an arrest may be made for even a minor traffic violation without offending the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/23 "2014-10-10T12:59:36Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > The stop itself is not an arrest. But an arrest can be made even on minor traffic violations. The stop itself is a detainment, falling under a subset of Terry. Right, so what **Habeed** said is not correct. You’re not under arrest because a cop saw a traffic violation and turned his lights on. If you get arrested, then you’re under arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/24 "2014-10-10T14:38:55Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Did you read my previous posts? and > [@pkbites](#): > > Did you read my previous post? But you didn’t answer my questions in those posts, which is why I asked. I’m sorry if my questions were bothersome to you, officer. I will try to behave myself more inline with your unknown expectations in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/25 "2014-10-10T14:38:59Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > [Yes](http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/justifies-arrest-probable-cause.html), it is. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > [No](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkemer_v._McCarty). It isn’t. In fairness, the Nolo article linked does say a traffic stop is an arrest. > [@](#): > > A driver is stopped for a routine traffic violation. The driver technically is under arrest because the driver is not free to leave until the officer has written a ticket (or if it’s the driver’s lucky day, only issued a warning). But the arrest is temporary. **Habeed** , this article is taken from a book [written for laypersons](http://www.nolo.com/products/the-criminal-law-handbook-kyr.html) which in this case is oversimplifying matters. During a traffic stop, the driver is _detained_, but is generally not _under arrest_. These are two different levels of interaction with law enforcement which involve two separate sets of rights to the suspect (though LEOs will frequently blur the line between the two, which makes it an even worse idea to conflate them in a book that purports to “teach people their rights”. Maybe I’ll send a strongly worded e-mail to the author.) ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/26 "2014-10-10T15:13:52Z")
**Moderator Action** Since this thread seems to involve a lot of opinions about legal stuff, let’s move it to our forum for opinions about legal stuff. Moving thread from General Questions to In My Humble Opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/27 "2014-10-10T15:21:16Z")
Huh. I thought this thread was about as GQ as GQ gets. I wouldn’t have been such a jerk to **Habeed** for that answer in IMHO! > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In fairness, the Nolo article linked does say a traffic stop is an arrest. Yeah, it says a few weird things. It immediately goes on to say > [@](#): > > Traffic stop arrests do not become part of a person’s arrest record, and do not count as arrests for the purpose of answering the question, “Have you ever been arrested?” (on a job or license application, for example). Which, like, those things are true – the answer to that question _would_ be no – but you’d think those things would point something important out about the whole situation. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/28 "2014-10-10T15:42:47Z")
Feel free to join me in my strongly worded e-mail. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/29 "2014-10-10T17:11:40Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > But you didn’t answer my questions in those posts, Yes, I did. You started talking about tickets getting sent state to state and I had already said Wisconsin is not a member of any compact. So even if the DOT sends a ticket to another state there isn’t much they can do about it. This is why we issue a license on paper and then suspend it. Because we can’t do anything to your home state license like a state in a compact can. But, like I said, every agency has their own policies and procedures. A friend of mine works for a department that only issues tickets regardless of where the violator is from. According to him in the summer time they tag a lot of Arizona and Florida drivers and nobody pays the cites. Well, duh. :rolleyes: Quite a few years ago someone cited a Nevada driver instead of taking them. I know this because I pulled the guy over and he had a warrant from the unpaid ticket. His wife was screaming and yelling not because he was in custody, but that I shouldn’t have pulled him over in the first place. He was going 76 in a 25. :rolleyes::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/30 "2014-10-10T17:22:17Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > No it isn’t. Whether it actually happens depends on the state and agency policy, but I most certainly can take you into custody for a traffic violation. In fact, if you don’t hold a license from a state that borders Wisconsin (for some reason Indiana is included but I don’t know why) you will be taken into custody and made to post bond. Huh!! I just checked, WI has a non resident exemption as all states do. > [@](#): > > In other states people are routinely taken into custody for minor traffic violations. You can’t in Ohio for a MM, and I suppose it is frowned upon in TX, even though legal in TX. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/31 "2014-10-10T17:23:20Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > An officer can order you and your passengers out of the vehicle and yes, legally you have to comply. Depending on the state the passengers may or may not have to ID themselves. > > Pennsylvania v. Mimms > > Brendlin v. California Brendlin is not the proper cite, it is Maryland v. Wilson. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/32 "2014-10-10T17:25:26Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > [Yes](http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/justifies-arrest-probable-cause.html), it is. No, a traffic stop is not an arrest, see Knowles v. Iowa. If receipt of a citation is not an arrest, then neither is the investigative stop. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/33 "2014-10-10T17:39:45Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > Brendlin is not the proper cite, it is Maryland v. Wilson. While I should have included Wilson, my point with Brendlin is that passengers are also “seized” during a stop. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/34 "2014-10-10T17:40:17Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > No, a traffic stop is not an arrest, see Knowles v. Iowa. If receipt of a citation is not an arrest, then neither is the investigative stop. Oh, to add, a traffic stop can turn into an arrest if it exceeds a reasonable time frame to complete the original purpose of the stop. Arguendo, this is not the case too often I would imagine. A “routine” stop in accord with TERRY is not an arrest. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/35 "2014-10-10T17:43:38Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > Inspired by a BBQ Pit thread about police tazing a fellow who refused to get out of the car on a routine traffic stop. > > I realize they can ask me to get out of my car any time during a stop, but at what point am I legally obliged to obey? No, I’m not looking to get into machismo contests with the police, so I don’t need an answer fast, and you’re not my lawyer. I’m just curious. > > If they have cause to stop me for a traffic violation, does that automatically confer on them the authority to make me get out of the car? What about passengers who, presumably, have _not_ violated any laws? If you are talking about the one in Sandusky Ohio, the cop said he reasonably resembled a man who was wanted, so he asked for ID and ordered him out, IF the cop was on the level, that is a lawful order. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/36 "2014-10-10T17:44:55Z")
> [@lawbuff](#): > > You can’t in Ohio for a MM, and I suppose it is frowned upon in TX, even though legal in TX. Is that for resident or non-resident violators? My cousin got pulled over back when the highway limit was only 65. He was taken into custody and made to post. Like most people he was stunned that that could happen. He was also stunned that he was tagged for only going 6 over in the middle of nowhere Wyoming. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/37 "2014-10-10T17:49:17Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Is that for resident or non-resident violators? > > My cousin got pulled over back when the highway limit was only 65. He was taken into custody and made to post. Like most people he was stunned that that could happen. > > He was also stunned that he was tagged for only going 6 over in the middle of nowhere Wyoming. ANY driver. If the offense is a minor misdemeanor, no arrest can be made absent a few statutory exceptions. Any offense a M4 and above is arrestable, and Ohio permits municipalities to have a higher classification than state law, so without knowing the exact charge, I can not say if the arrest was proper. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/38 "2014-10-10T17:54:47Z")
Pk, read this on Ohio’s MM classified offenses. We do not follow Atwater. > **[2003-ohio-3931.pdf](https://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/docs/pdf/0/2003/2003-ohio-3931.pdf)** > > 48.03 KB ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/39 "2014-10-10T18:06:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > During a traffic stop, the driver is _detained_, but is generally not _under arrest_. These are two different levels of interaction with law enforcement which involve two separate sets of rights to the suspect (though LEOs will frequently blur the line between the two, which makes it an even worse idea to conflate them in a book that purports to “teach people their rights” This is how Ohio viewed it, even before Knowles. \*\*\*\*\*This court previously held in State v. Barker (1978), 53 Ohio St.2d 135, 139, certiorari denied, 439 U.S. 913, as follows: “The word `arrest' is derived from the French `arreter,’ meaning to stop or stay, as signifies a restraint of a person. Alter v. Paul (1955), 101 Ohio App. 139, 141. An arrest occurs when the following four requisite elements are involved: (1) An intent to arrest, (2) under a real or pretended authority, (3) accompanied by an actual or constructive seizure or detention of the person, and (4) which is so understood by the person arrested. State v. Terry (1966), 5 Ohio App.2d 122, 128, citing State v. Milam (1959), 108 Ohio App. 254, 268; \* \* \*” Cf. Delaware v. Prouse (1979), 440 U.S. 648, 59 L. Ed. 2d 660; United States v. Robinson (1973), 414 U.S. 218; Adams v. Williams (1972), 407 U.S. 143; Terry v. Ohio (1968), 392 U.S. 1; Toledo v. Lowenberg (1955), 99 Ohio App. 165. Furthermore, an arrest, in the technical, as well as the common sense, signifies the apprehension of an individual or the restraint of a person’s freedom in contemplation of the formal charging with a crime. United States v. Bonanno (S.D.N.Y. 1960), 180 F.Supp. 71; Patterson v. United States (C. A. 5, 1951), 192 F.2d 631, 633 (dictum), certiorari denied, 343 U.S. 951. See, also, 5 American Jurisprudence 2d 698, Arrest, Section 3; American Law Institute, Code of Criminal Procedure, Section 18.6\*\*\*\* \*_**Accordingly, we reiterate our prior specific and unambiguous rejection of the concept that receipt of a traffic citation is the functional equivalent of an arrest. State v. Holbert (1974), 38 Ohio St.2d 113, 116-117.**_ > **[STATE v. DARRAH | 64 Ohio St. 2d 22 (1980) | iost2d22180 | Leagle.com](https://www.leagle.com/decision/19808664ohiost2d22180.xml)** > > CELEBREZZE C. J. In support of his argument that the charge against him should be dismissed appellant contends that a weigh station...iost2d22180 ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882/40 "2014-10-10T18:17:46Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > [Yes](http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/justifies-arrest-probable-cause.html), it is. I had to think of this in my head, but this case discusses whether Richardson was under arrest or was it just a Terry stop. See par. 13 to start; [http://openjurist.org/949/f2d/851/united-states-v-richardson](http://openjurist.org/949/f2d/851/united-states-v-richardson) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-can-police-lawfully-order-you-out-of-your-car/700882.md?page=1)