# When complete and total jerk-asses happen to be right **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2025, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273 "2025-06-06T16:30:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/1 "2025-06-06T16:30:30Z")
There is a logical fallacy formally known as _ad hominem_ which consists of discrediting an argument based on the known character and other arguments and positions of the person making the argument. It implies that the argument is suspect from the start simply due to who is putting it forward. While this is recognized as strictly being fallacious logically, there seems to be a widespread attitude today that as a practical matter _ad hominem_ is a useful heuristic; that arguments put forward by people considered intellectually or even morally bankrupt should be viewed with suspicion. Or even that conceding anything to someone of an opposing viewpoint is counterproductive in the context of an ideological war. What are some examples you know of of “it’s a shame someone like that has be right”? Things that you’re outright grudging in conceding? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/2 "2025-06-06T16:36:34Z")
There’s also an old Chicago City Council maxim: “never encourage an asshole.” Because even when a bad actor embraces a good thing, it’s probably their ulterior motive you’ll be endorsing ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/3 "2025-06-06T16:39:49Z")
Lots. Trump and MAGA occasionally make some valid or half-valid arguments. They were right to complain that many European NATO nations weren’t pulling their proper share of the defense/military-spending burden, for instance. The Nazis had a valid argument, in the 1930s, that the WWI Treaty of Versailles treated Germany unfairly. Various statements made by Hitler in Mein Kampf or elsewhere were technically correct in a Machiavellian way. For instance, "_He who owns the youth, gains the future." “The receptivity of the masses is very limited, their intelligence is small, but their power of forgetting is enormous.”_ etc. etc. I’m not sure if the OP considers “a broken clock is right twice a day” examples to count, but folks like Ann Coulter and Dick Cheney have all made valid criticisms of Trump at some point or other. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/4 "2025-06-06T16:52:38Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Trump and MAGA occasionally make some valid or half-valid arguments. Yep. We do have a border problem that needs fixed, not that I agree with how they are doing it but nobodys done jack about for decades. Doing half measures cost the Dems that damn election. And we don’t need the penny either and Social Security should never have been taxed. They are bigoted assholes but a few of their ideas are just common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/5 "2025-06-06T16:54:59Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Yep. We do have a border problem that needs fixed, not that I agree with how they are doing it but nobodys done jack about for decades. I agree that there’s a border problem, but it’s the exact opposite of what they claim it is, and therefore any “solution” they offer is going to be counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/6 "2025-06-06T16:58:38Z")
Agreed, the claim is total bullshit and what they are doing is in many cases is illegal and inhumane. What they are right about is the open border needs to be tightened up, something no administration has taken seriously. By ignoring the problem the previous adminstrations are giving this one the appearance of a win, which does piss me off. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/7 "2025-06-06T17:09:31Z")
No, what they’re wrong about is that the closed border needs to be loosened up. Everyone always says “They should come here legally!”. Which means that there needs to be a way to do that. Which there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/8 "2025-06-06T17:13:28Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > There is a logical fallacy formally known as _ad hominem_ which consists of discrediting an argument based on the known character and other arguments and positions of the person making the argument. I always point out that the “based on” part is important. “You’re wrong, and you’re an idiot” isn’t ad hominem – it’s just an insult. Ad hominem is, “You’re wrong _because_ you’re an idiot” and I don’t think there’s actually all that much of that going on. People hurl insults, but they’re never really used to justify any argument. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/9 "2025-06-06T17:18:19Z")
Also, “You’re a bad person, and therefore what you say absolutely must be false” is a fallacy. But “You’re a bad person, and therefore I don’t trust what you say, and must consider the possibility that what you’re saying is false” isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/10 "2025-06-06T17:26:26Z")
We have several threads offering an excellent example of what the OP asks for, and that is the criticisms that Elon Musk has leveled against Trump since their falling-out. Musk is an unmitigated self-serving jerk whose moral standards are just as non-existent as Trump’s, and many of his criticisms are self-serving and largely being made for the wrong reasons; still, the fact the remains that his attacks on Trump, taken at face value, are essentially correct. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/11 "2025-06-06T17:28:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Also, “You’re a bad person, and therefore what you say absolutely must be false” is a fallacy. But “You’re a bad person, and therefore I don’t trust what you say, and must consider the possibility that what you’re saying is false” isn’t. Very much this. If someone I detest makes an argument I agree with, I don’t dismiss it out of hand, or stop to reconsider my ideas (unless the argument is strong enough on it’s own). I will absolutely though question the motives of the party _especially_ (context matters!) if it’s an about-face or signification change from their prior stance. Another variant comes from a more common source, that people _aren’t_ all one thing. If we’re sticking to politics, prior to the last 10ish years of excessive polarization (especially for the Right) you did have politicians who I disagreed with on many issues, but were in tune with me on others, because, well, there’s a range of beliefs. But it ties into the old trope that you can have a totally evil waste of space, but they still love their kids, or their pets, or _something_. Just because I agree their kids are cute, it changes NOTHING about what they are. Once we move past the ideals though, and move into the realm of actions, things get a bit different. If said individual wants to work with “my” team to forward my goals, then we’re at the stage of having to consider supping with the proverbial long spoon. And check three times for poison pills. And for what access they gain. Like most things in life, it’s a balancing act. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/12 "2025-06-06T18:19:37Z")
Millican’s oil drop experiment which first provided a good estimate of the charge on the electron. Apparently Millican was something of an asshole, or at least very prickly, according to some contemporaries. But he got that one fairly right…? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/13 "2025-06-06T19:20:55Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > Apparently Millican was something of an asshole, or at least very prickly He _really_ got pissy when people misspelled his name: 😉 > **[Robert Andrews Millikan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Andrews_Millikan)** > > Robert Andrews Millikan (/ˈmɪlɪkən/ MIL-i-kuhn; March 22, 1868 – December 19, 1953) was an American physicist who received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1923 "for his work on the elementary charge of electricity and on the photoelectric effect". > Millikan graduated from Oberlin College in 1891 and obtained his doctorate at Columbia University in 1895. In 1896, he became an assistant at the University of Chicago, where he became a full professor in 1910. In 1909, Millikan began a series of exper... ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/14 "2025-06-06T19:39:41Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > It implies that the argument is suspect from the start simply due to who is putting it forward. No, that’s the _Genetic Fallacy_. > **[Genetic fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy)** > > The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue) is a fallacy of irrelevance in which arguments or information are dismissed or validated based solely on their source of origin rather than their content. In other words, a claim is ignored or given credibility based on its source rather than the claim itself. > The fallacy therefore fails to assess the claim on its merit. The first criterion of a good argument is that the premises must have bearing on the truth or fal... _Ad hominem_ attacking the arguer not the argument. _Genetic Fallacy_ dismissing the argument because of who the arguer is. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/15 "2025-06-06T19:54:34Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > _Genetic Fallacy_ dismissing the argument because of who the arguer is. … or where they got the argument or supporting data from. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/16 "2025-06-06T20:05:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t trust what you say, and must consider the possibility that what you’re saying is false You should do that with everyone, shouldn’t you? Good person, bad person, it doesn’t matter - you should always verify whatever you’re told. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/17 "2025-06-06T20:18:56Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You should do that with everyone, shouldn’t you? Good person, bad person, it doesn’t matter - you should always verify whatever you’re told. There are people who put the work in, who you KNOW are doing their due diligence before they speak. There are also people who you KNOW aren’t doing anything like due diligence. Nobody has time (or expertise) to personally verify everything everyone tells them. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/18 "2025-06-06T20:25:29Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > “You’re wrong, and you’re an idiot”… If you are wrong, and you happen to also be an asshole, you are an ignoranus. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/19 "2025-06-06T20:31:02Z")
He used an incorrect value for air resistance, so his result was a bit wrong, but that was an honest mistake. People who replicated his work tended to be closer to his results than they should have been, which is embarrassing, since apparently they consciously or unconsciously skewed their results to be closer to his (I’m basing this on memory of something Feynman wrote - will doublecheck shortly) Feynman’s article [Cargo Cult Science](https://web.archive.org/web/20210417060350/https://www.lockhaven.edu/~dsimanek/cargocul.htm) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273/20 "2025-06-06T20:41:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The Nazis had a valid argument, in the 1930s, that the WWI Treaty of Versailles treated Germany unfairly. True, and Hitler hated smoking. > [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > We do have a border problem that needs fixed, I disagree. In fact there is no “problem”. But we do have an issue with people in the USA who need a clear path to citizenship. > [@Chronos](#): > > I agree that there’s a border problem, but it’s the exact opposite of what they claim it is, I can see that. > [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > And we don’t need the penny either and Social Security should never have been taxed I agree on both. Blame Reagan for the first- when he cut taxes for the rich, he added back taxes on Social Security and Unemployment. Let us roll that bak- top marginal tax rate back to 70%, and no tax on Soc Sec or Unemployment. Musk has promoted EVs- which are a _Good Thing_- for many but by no means all. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-complete-and-total-jerk-asses-happen-to-be-right/1019273.md?page=2)