# When defeat equals victory! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 31, 2016, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366 "2016-07-31T11:31:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/21 "2016-08-04T19:45:35Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > I’m interested in similar examples where a loss was called a win or later recognized as being a stepping stone to victory. > > Sports legends, military, elections, fantasy, or any kind of story would be great. The story goes that defending champ Arrhichion was awarded the win as an Olympic wrestler when the guy who was grappling him loudly submitted due to extreme pain, what with all that dead weight pressing down on his ankle or his toe or whatever. So they promptly called the match for Arrhichion, who’d – well, _died_. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/22 "2016-08-04T20:10:50Z")
Tet Offensive: the Viet Cong suffered a tactical defeat, but the American public perceived it as a VC victory. Years later, North Vietnam won the war. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/23 "2016-08-04T20:14:53Z")
I wonder if there is a term for this. I know a victory that is really a defeat is a “Pyrrhic victory”. > **[Pyrrhic victory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory)** > > A Pyrrhic victory (/ˈpɪrɪk/ (listen) PIRR-ik) is a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat. Such a victory negates any true sense of achievement or damages long-term progress. > The phrase originates from a quote from Pyrrhus of Epirus, whose triumph against the Romans in the Battle of Asculum in 279 BC destroyed much of his forces, forcing the end of his campaign. > A "Pyrrhic victory" is named after King Pyrrhus of Epirus, whose army suffered i... What about a defeat that is really a victory? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/24 "2016-08-04T21:17:25Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Tet Offensive: the Viet Cong suffered a tactical defeat, but the American public perceived it as a VC victory. Years later, North Vietnam won the war. See post #18 ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/25 "2016-08-04T21:42:07Z")
I seriously can not imagine Trump admitting defeat, ever. His head would explode if he ever tried to give a “concession speech”. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/26 "2016-08-04T22:47:29Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > See post #18 Woops, ninja’d. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2016, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/27 "2016-08-07T13:26:20Z")
SOMETIMES, it isn’t immediately obvious if a battle resulted in a huge victory or a shattering defeat. In the Napoleonic Wars, the battle between the French and the Russians at Borodino seemed more like a draw than like a huge Russian victory at the time. As Tolstoy noted in “War and Peace,” it was only as the French began their long retreat from Russia that the extent of the Russian victory became apparent. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2016, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/28 "2016-08-08T17:02:22Z")
Would Pearl Harbor count? The Japanese definitely won that encounter but it brought the US into the war. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/29 "2016-08-08T18:23:20Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > SOMETIMES, it isn’t immediately obvious if a battle resulted in a huge victory or a shattering defeat. In the Napoleonic Wars, the battle between the French and the Russians at Borodino seemed more like a draw than like a huge Russian victory at the time. As Tolstoy noted in “War and Peace,” it was only as the French began their long retreat from Russia that the extent of the Russian victory became apparent. It was seen as a French victory at the time, not a draw - the French advanced to seize Moscow after the battle, and the Russians could not stop them. It was however a good example of a “Pyrrhic victory”, as the Russians refused to concede defeat, regrouped, and continued the war - which the French had no way of winning, in the context of a Russian winter. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2016, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/30 "2016-08-08T22:41:22Z")
Far fewer people would remember Lou Gehrig today if not for his disease and his farewell speech. I would call the disease a failure but the remembrance as a victory. He never would have gotten out of Babe Ruth’s shadow otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Vicsage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e68b1a/32.png) [@Vicsage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vicsage)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/31 "2016-08-09T03:53:33Z")
When Darth Vader struck down Obi-Wan in Episode IV, when Luke lost his hand and fell in Episode V, when Darth died but was still redeemed in Episode VI. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/32 "2016-08-09T07:47:22Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It was seen as a French victory at the time, not a draw - the French advanced to seize Moscow after the battle, and the Russians could not stop them. > > It was however a good example of a “Pyrrhic victory”, as the Russians refused to concede defeat, regrouped, and continued the war - which the French had no way of winning, in the context of a Russian winter. For that matter, Pyrrhus of Epirus himself, after defeating the Romans in battle a couple of times remarked, “If we are victorious in one more battle with the Romans, we shall be utterly ruined”. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2016, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/33 "2016-08-11T08:26:15Z")
A Biblical example would be Samson’s death in Judges 16: > [@](#): > > Then the Philistines seized him, gouged out his eyes and took him down to Gaza. Binding him with bronze shackles, they set him to grinding grain in the prison. 22 But the hair on his head began to grow again after it had been shaved. > > 23 Now the rulers of the Philistines assembled to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon their god and to celebrate, saying, “Our god has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our hands.” > > 24 When the people saw him, they praised their god, saying, > > “Our god has delivered our enemy > into our hands, > the one who laid waste our land > and multiplied our slain.” > > 25 While they were in high spirits, they shouted, “Bring out Samson to entertain us.” So they called Samson out of the prison, and he performed for them. > > When they stood him among the pillars, 26 Samson said to the servant who held his hand, “Put me where I can feel the pillars that support the temple, so that I may lean against them.” 27 Now the temple was crowded with men and women; all the rulers of the Philistines were there, and on the roof were about three thousand men and women watching Samson perform. 28 Then Samson prayed to the Lord, “Sovereign Lord, remember me. Please, God, strengthen me just once more, and let me with one blow get revenge on the Philistines for my two eyes.” 29 Then Samson reached toward the two central pillars on which the temple stood. Bracing himself against them, his right hand on the one and his left hand on the other, 30 Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines!” Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. **Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived.** ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/34 "2016-11-09T09:48:45Z")
This thread did not go as planned. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/35 "2016-11-09T18:51:08Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > This thread did not go as planned. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366/36 "2016-11-09T23:58:31Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > This thread did not go as planned. But you get 5,000 Internet Points for resurrecting it to point out that fact, instead of simply letting it quietly fade away into obscurity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-defeat-equals-victory/761366.md?page=1)