# When did a violin become a fiddle? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 1, 2001, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-a-violin-become-a-fiddle/84697 "2001-10-01T02:12:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Road\_Rash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Road\_Rash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Road_Rash)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2001, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-a-violin-become-a-fiddle/84697/1 "2001-10-01T02:12:49Z")
Say violin and I think of a symphony. Say fiddle and I think country hoedown, or Irish song of alcohol and woe. Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![leroy\_the\_mule](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6a8cbe/32.png) [@leroy\_the\_mule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leroy_the_mule)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2001, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-a-violin-become-a-fiddle/84697/2 "2001-10-01T02:49:32Z")
Some “fiddles” have flatter bridges than violins do. This makes it easier to play double-stops (slurs), part of that good mountain sound. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2001, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-a-violin-become-a-fiddle/84697/3 "2001-10-01T03:06:58Z")
Ah, but it’s the other way around. The word fiddle _fithele_ shows up around 1200 in English. Violin, not until 1579. Although it probably is around a bit earlier in Italian. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2001, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-a-violin-become-a-fiddle/84697/4 "2001-10-01T03:10:20Z")
You made me curious. I thought it was an american word, but; From m-w; > [@](#): > > Main Entry: 1fid·dle > Pronunciation: 'fi-d&l > Function: noun > Etymology: Middle English fidel, from (assumed) Old English fithele, probably from Medieval Latin vitula > Date: 13th century > 1 : VIOLIN Middle English? Wow! Shoulda known. Many old southern words are from Old English or German. BTW; Many fiddles were home made. And from pretty ‘crude’ materials. Kudus to those old timers. Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![AwSnappity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@AwSnappity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AwSnappity)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2001, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-a-violin-become-a-fiddle/84697/5 "2001-10-01T03:10:31Z")
I learned from a former orchestra teacher that “fiddle” was actually first used to describe violas. I don’t know how true this is; sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Carpenter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Mr\_Carpenter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Carpenter)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2001, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-a-violin-become-a-fiddle/84697/6 "2001-10-01T03:26:48Z")
Ma pappy always tole us younguns that the fiddle came into this world when people in the mountains of West Virginie din’t know how to play the violin. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2001, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-a-violin-become-a-fiddle/84697/7 "2001-10-01T04:14:26Z")
In 1969, at the World Fiddle Championships, Yasha Heifitz (sp?) a violinist of world repute was asked why he did not join in the competition. His answer was that he didn’t play the fiddle. When asked if that wasn’t the same as playing the violin, he reputedly replied, “No, you must be taught to play the violin, but you must learn to play the fiddle by yourself.” I cannot attest to the accuracy of the quote, but I concur with the sentiment. ## Tris “The difference between a violin and a viola is that a viola burns longer.” ~ Victor Borge ~ ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2001, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-a-violin-become-a-fiddle/84697/8 "2001-10-01T05:25:00Z")
In his 1914 classic textbook, _Orchestration_, Cecil Forsyth almost exclusively refers to the instrument as _fiddle_. And he wasn’t writing about good ole folk. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2001, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-a-violin-become-a-fiddle/84697/9 "2001-10-01T11:34:26Z")
When I was younger I used to hang around classical music types. I accompanied a friend who took violin lessons from a first-chair violinist of the Cleveland Orchestra. He most often said “fiddle” instead of “violin.” This is how they all talked at the Music School Settlement. George Szell was the conductor of the Cleveland Orchestra years ago. An example of his cruel sense of humor: when told that one of his violinists would not be able to attend rehearsal because he had fallen down the stairs, Szell asked: “Did he break his fiddle?” :rolleyes: _Fiddle_ and _violin_ are both derived from the same origin. But did Germanic borrow from Latin, or did Latin borrow from Germanic??? According to the _Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology_: > [@](#): > > Probably before 1200 _fithele_, in Layamon’s _Chronicle of Britain_; later _fedele_ (before 1398, in Trevisa’s translation of Bartholomew’s _De Proprietatibus Rerum_) and _fydell_ (about 1450); developed from Old English _fithele_, corresponding to Old High German _fidula_, Middle Low German _vedel_ (modern German _Fiedel_), Middle Dutch _vedel, vedele_ (modern Dutch _vedel, veel_), and Old Icelandic _fidhla_. > > These words are probably derived from Medieval Latin _vitula, vidula_ (for the shift from Latin _v_ to _f_ compare Old English _fann_ from Latin _vannus_) and are supposed by some scholars to have come from Vulgar Latin \*_vitula_, perhaps related to Latin _vitulari_ be joyful, of uncertain origin. Others suggest that Vulgar Latin \*_vitula_, represented in Old French _viole_, and Italian and Spanish _viola_, was itself a borrowing from the same Germanic source as Old English _fithele_. A connection has also been suggested with Latin _fides_ a lyre or lute, but originally a string, the later forms being derived from a diminutive of that word. However, the Latin does not agree with the Germanic forms, nor with those of the Romance languages (Spanish, Portuguese, Italian _viola_, French _viole_). The Romance form _viola_ developed when the intervocalic -_t_ of Vulgar Latin \*_vitula_ first softened to _-d-_ and then disappeared. Intervocalic _-d-_ is often an unstable sound in many languages. So _viola_ is the primary form related to _fiddle_; the word _violin_ came from the Italian diminutive _violino_. ---
**Author:** ![milo\_minderbinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@milo\_minderbinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milo_minderbinder)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2001, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-a-violin-become-a-fiddle/84697/10 "2001-10-01T14:09:15Z")
When people started paying a million bucks for a Stradivarius violin. 😃 milo ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2001, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-a-violin-become-a-fiddle/84697/11 "2001-10-01T15:15:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by leroy\_the\_mule \* > \*\*Some “fiddles” have flatter bridges than violins do. This makes it easier to play double-stops (slurs), part of that good mountain sound. \*\* _spittin’ tobacky_ Ah been fiddlin’ fer nigh onta twenny years and ah hain’t _never_ seen no flat bridge on no vi’lin nor no fiddle, neither. Them fancy folk up ta Ca’n’gie Hall plays double stops (which _hain’t_ slurs) jes’ as fine as ol’ Uncle Clem useta back in his fiddlin’ days afore he married Aunt Jessie. Them barn dances weren’t never the same oncet Jesse Harridan got hol’ of Uncle Clem an’ made him go t’ thet thar Baptist church. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2001, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-a-violin-become-a-fiddle/84697/12 "2001-10-01T21:04:46Z")
I think those that play in a country or bluegrass setting usually don’t refer to their instrument as a violin, lest they look pretentious before their fans. By the same token, whenever I hear Izthak Perelman refer to it as a fiddle, I get the impression he is trying to connect with people who perhaps aren’t big classical music fans…