# When did America become a nation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 8, 2026, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901 "2026-09-08T18:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/1 "2026-09-08T18:17:11Z")
We’ve getting getting a year’s hype about 2026 being America’s 250th anniversary. That has the virtue of consistency, since we had similar celebrations in 1876, 1926, and 1976. The date marks the issuing of the Declaration of Independence. Technically, though, a declaration of rebellion by colonies doesn’t make for a nation. What does? I’ve put together a poll of possible events over the years. I stopped at 1789 because everyone recognizes the legal continuity since then, so I don’t think any later date counts. All disagreements and other dates should be explained after choosing Other. _Poll ([view on site](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/1))_ ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/2 "2026-09-08T18:30:51Z")
Keep in mind, before ratification of the Constitution, we basically had almost no federal government. We were more like the loose grouping of Italian or German states. The 1788 or 1789 dates are really when the USA became a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/3 "2026-09-08T19:01:28Z")
Is the definition of “nation” the same as the definition of “government”? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/4 "2026-09-08T19:51:19Z")
The phrase “United States” appeared in the Declaration of Independence, so I think it’s fair to say that was the start. (all known earlier uses are apparently in personal correspondence or obscure newspapers, and none are dated before 1776) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/5 "2026-09-08T20:07:55Z")
That’s why I’m asking the question. How do you define “nation” and when do you think it started? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/6 "2026-09-08T21:13:11Z")
I answered 1776 because that’s what patriotic Americans mostly think today, and it’s a harmless kind of patriotism I respect. As to in what year Americans started feeling more loyalty to the United States than to their individual state, in the absence of modern polling, it requires guesswork. In 1850, did the average U.S. citizen regard the U.S. more or less like the EU is today regarded by the average French citizen? A good guess is that this at least true in the South. But maybe in the North as well. There is no way to measure it, and narrative history can reasonably go either way. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/7 "2026-09-08T21:24:35Z")
I voted for 1783. When the nation that had control over you formally recognizes your independence, there’s not much left to argue about being a “nation.” Now if you had asked about the federal government and system of laws, I would have voted for 1788-89 ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/8 "2026-09-08T21:26:51Z")
Americans have been a nation, that is a group of people who share a common culture, since about 1700. The date can be argued, but we were clearly a nation before independence, because Americans found it sensical to declare independence as a group. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/9 "2026-09-08T21:38:50Z")
We became a nation in 1776. But that’s not the same nation that we have today. That nation began in 1788 or 1789. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is the definition of “nation” the same as the definition of “government”? No, but a nation must have continuity of government. The government must evolve according to the laws of the government. There was no provision in British law for the Revolutionary War, so that was a new nation. There was no provision in the Articles of Confederation for the Constitution, so that was a new nation. If the Confederacy had succeeded, that would have been a new nation. But the election of new politicians, and the passing of amendments to the Constitution, have all proceeded according to the precepts of the Constitution, so those didn’t mean new nations. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/10 "2026-09-08T21:41:58Z")
1781 for me - when you get together and create a government for yourselves, you’ve decided that you’re one new nation, not 13 allied nations temporarily working together. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/11 "2026-09-08T21:43:54Z")
Some Brits like to pretend that the existence of the United States dates from the Treaty of Paris. As if we only have a country because they allowed it. Fie on that noise. I caught some Brit editing a table in Wikipedia to say the United States dates from 1783. I reverted that right quick. It’s 1776, it was never anything but 1776. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/12 "2026-09-08T21:52:09Z")
The Declaration made the nation. The rest was just sorting out the details. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/13 "2026-09-08T21:56:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > We became a nation in 1776. But that’s not the same nation that we have today. That nation began in 1788 or 1789. The way I put it is, we are currently on our _Deuxième République._ We were taught in school that France has had five republics. Looking at the United States through that lens, we have had two. Republics, that is. Still the same nation on a through line from 1776. France didn’t suddenly become a new nation when they started their 5th republic in 1958. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/14 "2026-09-08T21:57:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > a nation must have continuity of government You are conflating a _nation_ with a _state_. > [Nation - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation) > A nation is a type of social organization where a collective identity—a national identity—has emerged from a combination of shared features across a given population, such as language, history, ethnicity, culture, territory, or society. Some nations are constructed around ethnicity (see ethnic nationalism) while others are bound by political constitutions (see civic nationalism). > [State (polity) - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity)) > A state is a political entity that rules and governs society and the population within a definite territory, or in other words, it is referred to as the country itself with various administrative divisions. Governments are considered as an apparatus, representative, or instrument of states as such the term is used as a metonym for them in governmental topics. It is widely defined by the legitimacy of its sole discretion in the use of offensive and defensive force. Consider England, which has been a nation ever since the Germanic invaders formed a common culture in Britain around 500. The English nation existed before England was unified into a common state. (Note that the word _English_ is several centuries older than the word _England_.) And despite England no longer being an independent state, it is certainly still a nation. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/15 "2026-09-08T21:59:48Z")
I really disagree, the US was 13 almost independent nations until the Constitution was ratified. The states did almost everything on their own. They had their own military leaders. Regulated their own commerce. Only the states could tax. Congress relied on the States to contribute money. Congress was extremely weak. Please See Italy and Germany before their unifications. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/16 "2026-09-08T22:00:21Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Some Brits like to pretend that the existence of the United States dates from the Treaty of Paris. As if we only have a country because they allowed it. Those knaves! I’m glad to see you gave them a good thrashing on Wikipedia. I don’t know if there’s an exact date we can pin on America becoming a nation. I’d expect it was sometime in the 18th century, maybe as late as the 1750s, but possibly earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/17 "2026-09-08T22:01:17Z")
Somewhere on the Internet within the last few days I saw a claim that the Hanoverian dynasty couldn’t have been Germans because there was no country called Germany when the George I became King. But of course, there were Germans before there was a nation called Germany ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/18 "2026-09-08T22:02:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > No, but a nation must have continuity of government. So how many different nations was France between 1789 and 1870? Seven? Eight? Because if you ask the French, they’ll say one - France is France. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/19 "2026-09-08T22:06:40Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I really disagree, the US was 13 almost independent nations until the Constitution was ratified. Even more like Italy and Germany: one nation with many states. And don’t forget the other English states in the Americas that didn’t join in independence. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/20 "2026-09-08T22:07:42Z")
How did the Articles of Confederation compare to the modern EU? It seems to me that modern Europe is closer to being “one polity” (whatever you call that polity) than the Articles were. And if you count a “nation” by culture, heritage, and so on, and don’t consider nationhood to be interrupted by revolutions, then how did our nationhood cease to be British? I would maintain that the only notion of “nationhood” or similar concepts that the US even has is that defined by continuity of system of government. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901.md?page=2)