# When did America become a nation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 8, 2026, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901 "2026-09-08T18:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/41 "2026-09-09T02:07:09Z")
Though “they” was a moving target. The number of folks who were radicalized by the continuing struggle increased sharply of the 1770s, so that Franklin had to struggle to keep up - he was in England to complain about British treatment of the colonies, but while he was there, the situation had changed so much that his moderate positions started to look like he was too accomodating to the UK (leading to protests against him by more radical colonials in Philly). ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/42 "2026-09-09T02:14:58Z")
What happens if you consider Indigenous peoples as well as colonialists or European settlers in what became the country known as the United States? ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/43 "2026-09-09T02:24:40Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > The phrase “United States” appeared in the Declaration of Independence, so I think it’s fair to say that was the start. OTOH, most people spoke of “ **these** United States” rather than “ **the** United States” until after the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/44 "2026-09-09T04:27:15Z")
I think the American revolutionaries certainly did think of themselves as constituting a new nation with a unique culture distinct from British culture. The question is how long it took that attitude to filter down to the common folk. The US is a fairly unusual case where, arguably, the nationalist movement achieved independence before the “nation” really existed. I think there are two reasonable answers to the question of when a group of people become a “nation”; when the large majority of the people defined as being in the nation actually identify as being in the nation, and when the consensus of world opinion agrees that they are a nation (which does not necessarily mean that they have a State). For the second criterion, France recognized us in 1778, but most European countries didn’t formally recognize us until the Treaty of Paris in 1783. For the first…probably somewhere around that time? Of course there were still _some_ Loyalists around after the Revolution. I’m not sure at what point you could say the vast majority of the population stopped identifying as British. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/45 "2026-09-09T04:56:24Z")
Nonsense, there are lots of culturally distinct regions forming part of a larger nation. The Declaration was what made the United States exist. Its stated purpose was “to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station.” That’s all it took. There was no United States until the ratification of independence and the Declaration made it so. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/46 "2026-09-09T05:01:59Z")
No. The Declaration established the United States “to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station” in 1776. That did it. Anyway, the first country to recognize the United States was Morocco, not France, in 1777. You didn’t know that? Really? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/47 "2026-09-09T06:53:15Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > But of course, there were Germans before there was a nation called Germany Indeed. There was the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation (in which the ruler of Hanover was an Elector in their Electoral College) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/48 "2026-09-09T09:51:10Z")
When does a person start: when they’re born, when they’re conceived, or some other point? My instinct is to call the Declaration of Independence the conception and the ratification of the Constitution the birth, but it’s not something I’ve carefully thought about. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/49 "2026-09-09T10:43:54Z")
What Thudlow says. A good way to put it might be to say that the Continental Congresses, the Declaration of Independence, the Treaty of Paris, the Constitution and the other events mentioned in the OP are all signficant aspects of the shared history that defines the American nation as we know it today, but it’s the totality of that shared history, rather than any single event, that matters. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/50 "2026-09-09T12:09:51Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I voted for 1783. When the nation that had control over you formally recognizes your independence, there’s not much left to argue about being a “nation.” I think a lot of it hinges on what makes a “nation”. I mean, I feel like in the most absolute sense, it’s when you’re recognized as being sovereign over your own territory. That means that you’ve got to win your rebellion and be recognized as a peer by other nations, which is why I chose 1783. Otherwise every two-bit rebellion that declares independence would be a nation, and that’s not true. And yes, that means the Confederacy wasn’t a nation either; just a rebellious part of the US. Same for Catalonia and Spain; they declared indepence nine years ago, but nobody paid them any attention, and they’re still part of Spain and not an independent nation. Of course there are other nations that aren’t sovereign ones on the international stage- various tribes here in the US call themselves “Nations”, but aren’t out there being internationally recognized, writing treaties, etc… Are they nations? What about the Steeler Nation? So I’m drawing the line at being recognized by your peers as one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/51 "2026-09-09T13:38:33Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Nonsense, there are lots of culturally distinct regions forming part of a larger nation. The Declaration was what made the United States exist. And there are nations that are not independent states. The Americans started acting as a nation through the various Continental Congresses held in the decade before independence. The Declaration is grounded in the fact that the Americans were already a nation, and asserted that that _nation_ was henceforth a _state_. The American nation founded the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/52 "2026-09-09T13:47:02Z")
I think it’s important to recognize that the American nation and the United States have been ever-evolving concepts. Americans recognized that they were distinct from other British subjects, even while they accepted being British subjects. Regional identities continued even as the American nation became more concrete. The United States has been centralizing from the beginning, the Articles to the Constitution to the incorporation of amendments to the several states. The birth of the United States is well documented, while the birth of the American nation is not. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/53 "2026-09-09T14:04:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Hence, they didn’t consider themselves a part of the British nation. Under this criterion, no nation has ever existed. > [@Johanna](#): > > No. The Declaration established the United States “to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station” in 1776. That did it. Anyway, the first country to recognize the United States was Morocco, not France, in 1777. You didn’t know that? Really? > Morocco implicitly recognized the United States in 1777,[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_date_of_recognition_of_the_United_States#cite_note-1)[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_date_of_recognition_of_the_United_States#cite_note-2) after [Sultan Mohammed III](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_III_of_Morocco "Mohammed III of Morocco") signed a decree granting American ships protection and free access to Moroccan ports.[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_date_of_recognition_of_the_United_States#cite_note-:1-3) The Sultan previously expressed his desire to be a “friend of the Americans”.[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_date_of_recognition_of_the_United_States#cite_note-:1-3) Morocco formally recognized the United States on June 23, 1786, when a [treaty of peace and friendship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan%E2%80%93American_Treaty_of_Friendship "Moroccan–American Treaty of Friendship") was signed.[[4]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_date_of_recognition_of_the_United_States#cite_note-4) I deliberately removed Morocco from the list because of the lapse in time between the implicit recognition and the formal recognition. My stance is that only written on paper and signed documents count. But if you disagree I also deliberately included an Other choice so that anybody could declare their disagreement. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/54 "2026-09-09T14:11:39Z")
I think people (particularly the Catalans) do accept Catalonia as being a nation, though not an independent State. They have their own language and centuries of history. Likewise Native American tribes are certainly nations. I would agree that at least some conception that political sovereignty is desirable is essential to be a nation, even if nobody is actively pursuing that goal at a particular moment in history. So the Cherokee are still a nation, while Steeler Nation is not. Alberta, likewise, is not a nation because only a small minority of Albertans want to be a nation. In the case of America, national identity emerged at the same time as political independence. The successful revolutionary movement created conditions in which diverse groups of people came to identify as a nation based on their shared experience of the revolution. The same could have happened with the Confederacy, but since they lost the war I don’t think they ever qualified as a real nation, just a notional nation. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/55 "2026-09-09T14:49:02Z")
Then there’s Texas. We definitely have a sort of dual identity that’s a little different than merely identifying as a resident of a state, and it’s largely due to our historical background. We were actually a fully-fledged nation for a while, with diplomatic recognition and everything, before we agreed to be annexed by the United States. Are we a nation in that same sense as Catalonia? It’s all pretty murky, and if I had to venture a guess, it’s probably because there are multiple definitions of the word “nation”. Anyone know if these concepts are clearer in other languages? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/56 "2026-09-09T18:02:14Z")
1980 Winter Olympics (Miracle on Ice): > **[1980 Men’s Ice Hockey Team | 1980 Winter Olympics | USOPM](https://usopm.org/1980-mens-ice-hockey-team/)** > > The 1980 U.S. Men’s Ice Hockey Team is forever remembered in Olympic history, beating the Soviets at Lake Placid & winning “Miracle On Ice." ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/57 "2026-09-09T18:06:00Z")
**Moderating:** No context link. Please don’t do this again. ---
**Author:** ![Ancient\_Nerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed655f/32.png) [@Ancient\_Nerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ancient_Nerd)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2026, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/58 "2026-09-26T06:33:09Z")
Many have heard of the story of Rip Van Winkle, a fictional account of a man who falls asleep for twenty years. The American revolution took place during that time. The story is a commentary on the dramatic change in the way Americans thought of themselves. Rip says that he is a loyal subject of the king, a perfectly normal and friendly way to introduce oneself before the revolution. After the revolution, it freaks everyone out. We began to think of ourselves as a separate nation somewhere in that period. Relations between the US and Britain were quite tense for almost a century after that. There are serious events and humorous incidents that illustrate just how tense it was. Thirty-six years after the Declaration, we had the war of 1812. There was the call for ‘fifty-four forty or fight!’. We also had Fort Blunder and the Pig War near Vancouver as examples. Many settlers in New Brunswick were loyalist refugees. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2026, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901/59 "2026-09-26T14:56:10Z")
That’s the best answer yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-america-become-a-nation/1032901.md?page=2)