# When did British and American grammar diverge? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 21, 2010, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846 "2010-04-21T12:58:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/21 "2010-04-21T21:08:26Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Americans say, “John is in the hospital”, Brits omit the “the”. Canadians also phrase like the Brits ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/22 "2010-04-21T21:29:05Z")
We have been over this many times. It is not that Brits omit the “the” when referring to hospitals, but rather that Americans always include it. Brits do say “she’s in the hospital”, when they mean a particular hospital at the time in question. But when they mean the general ongoing state of being in whatever hospital, i.e. the state of a hospitalised person, they say “she’s in hospital”. Americans don’t make the distinction when it comes to hospitals, but do in other circumstances. For example “she’s at college” vs. “she’s at the college”. The former means that she is on the current roster of some college or other. The latter means that she is physically located at a particular college, right now. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/23 "2010-04-21T21:32:52Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Americans say, “John is in the hospital”, Brits omit the “the”. Actually, we use both - omitting the ‘the’ when we’re talking about the _function_ of the place, rather than just the place. John is in hospital (he’s a patient) Jack is at school (he’s a pupil) Jill has gone to college (she’s a student) John is in the hospital (he’s gone inside the hospital building, fixing some pipes - he’s a plumber) Jack is at the school (he’s the postman, delivering mail - or more subtle and tricky - he _is_ a pupil, but he’s there outside of school hours, playing football) Jill has gone to the college (God alone knows why - we’ll have to ask her when she gets back) Except we only use this phrasing for a few select kinds of place. We wouldn’t say “Jeremy is at theatre”, even if he is a trained actor. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/24 "2010-04-21T21:47:16Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > No, “REM are touring”. “Tool have released a new album”. “Your favourite band are rubbish”. I meant that band names take the plural form of the verb, not that we add an “s”. “Swindon is/are shit”. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/25 "2010-04-22T09:29:03Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > We wouldn’t say “Jeremy is at theatre”, even if he is a trained actor. Jeremy is in theatre, if he’s operating on a patient. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/26 "2010-04-22T14:39:54Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Even back in the Colonial era there were people in England complaining about those uncouth American colonials mangling the English language. I know he’s not especially well regarded around these parts, but I’m a huge Bill Bryson fan and found his books _Mother Tongue_ and _Made In America_ to be fascinating reading on the subject of the evolution of the English language and the American divergence thereof. Fascinating books, indeed! ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/27 "2010-04-22T14:52:32Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > So, “British Airways has lost millions because of the volcanic ash cloud.” “Dunkin Donuts has so far failed to catch on in the UK.” > > What’s the US style for those? Your two sentences above are exactly US style. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/28 "2010-04-22T23:48:05Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > But the one that irritates me is that the Brits seem to have lost the subjunctive. Where a book I cowrote had a large number of sentences of the form, “A necessary and sufficient condition that a category have [a certain property]…”, the British copy editor marked each one as a fault. To my ear, using “has” is such a sentence is just plain wrong. Sounds like you need a better copy editor. I’m British (and a copy editor!) and I would leave the subjunctive well alone in cases like that. It’s true that it’s not used all that often in informal speech and writing these days, however: people tend to say “If I was you…” rather than “If I were you…”, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/29 "2010-04-23T01:13:18Z")
It’s said that American grammar has tended to be more conservative, like retaining the present singular subjunctive in conditional clauses. Though some BrE dialects have retained some even more archaic features, like variants of “thou” and the requisite -st verb endings, I think that’s mostly accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Dancer\_Flight](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dancer_flight/32/7601_2.png) [@Dancer\_Flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dancer_Flight)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/30 "2010-04-23T02:01:27Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > Canadians also phrase like the Brits No one I know would omit “the” in “Grandma is in the hospital,” regardless of whether she is a patient or just physically located in the building. I like the distinction given above but, as I said, I’ve never heard anyone actually use it here. -DF[sup]\*[/sup] [sup]\*[/sup]Canadian all my life. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/31 "2010-04-23T04:55:10Z")
> [@](#): > > **Mk Vll** : “Yes, this is she”. Sounds pedantic to us. “Yes, that’s me” “Yes, this is she.” Sounds just fine to me. I wouldn’t think of speaking on a phone any other way. But with my friends – in a very casual and relaxed conversation – I would probably say, “Yes, that’s me.” The first is formal English and is considered grammatically correct. The second is not, but not one cares when you are with friends. I’m in the Southern U.S. Where are you? ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/32 "2010-04-23T05:13:02Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > “Yes, this is she.” Sounds just fine to me. I wouldn’t think of speaking on a phone any other way. But with my friends – in a very casual and relaxed conversation – I would probably say, “Yes, that’s me.” The first is formal English and is considered grammatically correct. The second is not, but not one cares when you are with friends. > > I’m in the Southern U.S. Where are you? Well, I (another US Southerner) would’nt say “Yes, that’s me” on the phone to my friends. If they didn’t recognize my voice for some reason, I’d say, “Girl, it’s **Mipp**!”, to which they’d probably respond, “Holy shit! I couldn’t tell who you were on the phone!” ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/33 "2010-04-23T07:13:49Z")
Can someone explain the American term ‘in back of’ - does it mean behind or at the back of? _John was standing in back of the weight bench._ _Bob was hiding in back of the closet._ _The marmite is in back of the pantry._ Can’t recall precise examples of reading it - although one of my favourite US writers uses it frequently and I find it absolutely jarring in otherwise exceptional prose. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/34 "2010-04-23T08:13:27Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > “Swindon is/are shit”. This is quite a good one for illustration - Swindon _is_ shit = I did not enjoy my visit to the town called Swindon (bloody roundabouts) Swindon _are_ shit = The football team representing Swindon consistently falls short of my expectations The plural creeps in because we’re mentally handling teams, organisations, bands, etc as a collection of people. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/35 "2010-04-23T08:17:42Z")
On grammar, both are pretty flexible: “Oliver’s Army is here to stay/Oliver’s Army are on their way.” Don’t underestimate the linguistic effect of all those Germans and Scotch-Irish Presbyterians. We’re a mish-mash of all our influences, and they are different from England’s. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/36 "2010-04-23T13:23:21Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > Can someone explain the American term ‘in back of’ - does it mean behind or at the back of? > > _John was standing in back of the weight bench._ > > _Bob was hiding in back of the closet._ > > _The marmite is in back of the pantry._ John is behind. Bob and the marmite are at the rear of. So used in both meanings. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/37 "2010-04-23T13:58:42Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > John is behind. > > Bob and the marmite are at the rear of. > > So used in both meanings. American from Louisiana here, and I think the closet/pantry used of “in back of” are very odd-sounding. “_He was hiding in THE back of the closet_” or “_The jar is in THE back of the pantry_” sound more like something people around here would say. The first “_… in back of the weight bench_” usage is OK. In this case, “in back of” would be synonymous with “behind”. I’m sure there are many regional variations of this usage. ---
**Author:** ![Busy\_Scissors](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@Busy\_Scissors](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Busy_Scissors)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/38 "2010-04-23T14:14:34Z")
Thanks - just to be clear I made those sentences up based on my recollection of how I’ve seen the phrase written. They could well be bad examples. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/39 "2010-04-23T15:17:26Z")
> [@Busy\_Scissors](#): > > Can someone explain the American term ‘in back of’ - does it mean behind or at the back of? > > _The **marmite** is in back of the pantry._ Note that this is a very rarely uttered sentence in America, although that has nothing to do with the grammar. “Peanut butter” — much more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846/40 "2010-04-23T15:27:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Can someone explain the American term ‘in back of’ - does it mean behind or at the back of? > > John was standing in back of the weight bench. > > Bob was hiding in back of the closet. > > The marmite is in back of the pantry. > > Can’t recall precise examples of reading it - although one of my favourite US writers uses it frequently and I find it absolutely jarring in otherwise exceptional prose. “In back of” means behind but seperate from some place. “In the back of” means in the rear but inside of some place. So if Harry is in back of the house, he’s out in the backyard not in the house itself. If he’s in the back of the house, he’s inside the house in one of the bedrooms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-british-and-american-grammar-diverge/536846.md?page=3)