# When did DC & Marvel start acknowledging civilian deaths due to superhuman fights? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 13, 2009, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059 "2009-01-13T07:19:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/21 "2009-01-14T04:58:47Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > 1. From day one, EVERYONE is hunting the Hulk–yeah, they may feel sorry for Bruce, but them’s the breaks–of course this contradicts every Hulk crossover from ~1961-2002 (including pretty much a 150 issue run of Defenders) Well, a 125-issue run, anyway. He and the other founders quit the team, and the book spent the next 27 issues functioning as a really bland X-Men spinoff team. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/22 "2009-01-14T08:17:32Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > As for “The Punisher kills the Marvel Universe”, I always took that as “well, my dad can beat up your dad”. And he’d get his clock cleaned in DC in half a minute because the heroes are too powerful. Never liked him. Just showed how a gun can and should kill everyone from Batman to Captain America. As for DC having more powerful heroes, in some cases yes but the Silver Surfer could solo the entire JLA. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/23 "2009-01-14T08:34:06Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Just showed how a gun can and should kill everyone from Batman to Captain America. > > As for DC having more powerful heroes, in some cases yes but the Silver Surfer could solo the entire JLA. Nah…not really… like Wolverine or Superman the Silver Surfer is as powerful or as weak as the story requires him to be. There have been stories where he was barely holding his own against a lizard pirate leader “Captain Reptyl” in hand to hand combat or captured and de powered by robot bureaucracies, and then others where he’s decimating attacking space fleets. There plenty of wiggle room in his power set for him to get his ass kicked by the JLA. ---
**Author:** ![tclouie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@tclouie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tclouie)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/24 "2009-01-14T08:37:51Z")
Unbelievable how no one yet has mentioned Garth Ennis’ “The Boys” series! Issue #21 is a classic – it shows how, if superheroes had existed on 9/11, they would have screwed up and made the outcome worse. Favorite line from that issue: “Can’t you push the plane to safety?” “How? It’s not on the ground, there’s nothing to push against!” (Disclaimer: I’m not sure if mechanical physics backs up this scenario.) Actually, the entire premise of The Boys is that the protagonist’s girlfriend was callously and carelessly killed by a speedster fighting a villain. Leaving him holding her dismembered arms. This series should be the answer to the OP! As for the Big Two, IIRC one reason Captain America surrendered to the government at the end of the Civil War was that he was dismayed by how many civilian casualties were being caused by the climactic super-on-super battle. They even mentioned a number IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/25 "2009-01-14T10:22:54Z")
> [@tclouie](#): > > Unbelievable how no one yet has mentioned Garth Ennis’ “The Boys” series! > > Issue #21 is a classic – it shows how, if superheroes had existed on 9/11, they would have screwed up and made the outcome worse. Favorite line from that issue: “Can’t you push the plane to safety?” “How? It’s not on the ground, there’s nothing to push against!” (Disclaimer: I’m not sure if mechanical physics backs up this scenario.) > > Actually, the entire premise of The Boys is that the protagonist’s girlfriend was callously and carelessly killed by a speedster fighting a villain. Leaving him holding her dismembered arms. This series should be the answer to the OP! …Except that the OP refers specifically to Marvel and DC. The Boys are published by Dynamite (and originally by Wildstorm, a DC imprint at that point) as a commentary on, not a participant in, Marvel/DC continuity. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/26 "2009-01-14T13:29:09Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > I think they’re back to “He does kill people” again–the whole “Planet Hulk” thing was based on the idea that he was too dangerous to leave wandering around. That was actually the middle step that they’ve since backed off on. I agree with your assessment of the situation. As I noted if they did have the occasional accidental casualty from flying debris then I can accept that interpretation but you are correct in saying that it dramatically changes things. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/27 "2009-01-14T14:07:21Z")
Wait–I quit at Planet Hulk…but I read the Illuminati issue that led into it. They shot Bruce into space because Hulk killed all those people. How can they back off on that? If they do, doesn’t that make Reed, Tony and the others look like…well…morons? I don’t have a problem with them shooting Hulk into space if he’s killing people (although wouldn’t it be morally better to simply put a bullet in Bruce’s head one night rather than dumping a walking H-Bomb on some other planet?) but I do have a problem with Reed making an oopsie like “Well, we shot him into space 'cause we thought he was killing people, but um…he wasn’t. My bad.” How did they retcon that??? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/28 "2009-01-14T14:28:57Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Wait–I quit at Planet Hulk…but I read the Illuminati issue that led into it. They shot Bruce into space because Hulk killed all those people. How can they back off on that? If they do, doesn’t that make Reed, Tony and the others look like…well…morons? > > I don’t have a problem with them shooting Hulk into space if he’s killing people (although wouldn’t it be morally better to simply put a bullet in Bruce’s head one night rather than dumping a walking H-Bomb on some other planet?) but I do have a problem with Reed making an oopsie like “Well, we shot him into space 'cause we thought he was killing people, but um..he wasn’t. My bad.” > > How did they retcon that??? See my initial post about Bendis and Miller not really doing “realistic” stories. 🙂 (Okay, admittedly this is not something I cannot seriously blame on them; it’s just from the same vein of writing stories with “cool” plot points that open huge cans of worms that are never addressed.) ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/29 "2009-01-14T14:50:30Z")
> [@Just\_Some\_Guy](#): > > And Moore never got around to showing the collateral damage in the 1980’s? There was an entire issue of Miracleman that was the most gruesome collateral damage of superhuman conflict ever put on page. Compare that work to what is being done today. Miracleman: “My apologists say the car was empty before I threw it at him. I’m sorry, but that’s simply not true.” ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/30 "2009-01-14T15:14:06Z")
While ‘The Boys’ might not count due to the whole 'not published by DC, thing, I’d point to The WildStorm Universe, which is indeed owned by DC and has featured crossovers. In the Captain Atom crossover where he ends up in the WildStorm world he’s astonished at how scared and hostile normal people are to those with powers. And he’s also nonplussed at how cavalierly those with powers treat collateral damage. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/31 "2009-01-14T15:54:30Z")
Also, I think Wildstorm is Earth-50 or Earth-48 or similar. Um…or was, before Final Crisis. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/32 "2009-01-14T20:41:09Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Nah…not really… like Wolverine or Superman the Silver Surfer is as powerful or as weak as the story requires him to be. There have been stories where he was barely holding his own against a lizard pirate leader “Captain Reptyl” in hand to hand combat or captured and de powered by robot bureaucracies, and then others where he’s decimating attacking space fleets. There plenty of wiggle room in his power set for him to get his ass kicked by the JLA. Depends on how you gage the fight. If we go by his consistent feats he’s turning them all into cabbages before the first synapse in any of their brains fire. Even the Flash. Typically, he’s a beast and nigh unbeatable if he is bloodlusted. Still, a gun should wipe out most of the MU and the DCU. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/33 "2009-01-14T21:24:16Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Depends on how you gage the fight. If we go by his consistent feats he’s turning them all into cabbages before the first synapse in any of their brains fire. Even the Flash. Typically, he’s a beast and nigh unbeatable if he is bloodlusted. > > Still, a gun should wipe out most of the MU and the DCU. Seriously? I can’t imagine Frank Castle lasting 5 seconds against the JLA. Or, indeed, the Teen Titans. He’d be WORSE off if he got a lucky shot against, say, Aquaman and managed to kill him. That’s going to leave the likes of Wonder Woman en-fucking-raged. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/34 "2009-01-14T21:47:52Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Seriously? I can’t imagine Frank Castle lasting 5 seconds against the JLA. Or, indeed, the Teen Titans. He’d be WORSE off if he got a lucky shot against, say, Aquaman and managed to kill him. That’s going to leave the likes of Wonder Woman en-fucking-raged. Doesn’t Batman keep a file of how to kill everyone on the JLA as well as most of the other major heroes? The Punisher thing is something like that. Not Frank Castle walking to the JLA building with a shotgun and going to town, but him planning each hit according to the powers and weakness of the person involved. Sure, the Punisher is not Batman, but he is probably the closest thing to him in the current Marvel line up of major names. Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/35 "2009-01-14T21:57:53Z")
That would assume (he said, digging deeper into the geek pit) that Castle knew how to kill them and had a lot of technology to do it. Batman’s got the money to do it right. Castle just wouldn’t, especially since the secret identity thing would be in effect. As for Banner killing himself, they’ve written him as trying, but the Hulk always changes in time and stops him. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/36 "2009-01-14T22:01:20Z")
I’m sorry, but not even Reason really should stand a chance against Spidey, let alone Iron Man. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/37 "2009-01-14T22:07:06Z")
I believe **Lochdale** was saying that the _Silver Surfer_ could take down the JLA and, additionally, that most Marvel and DC heroes could be killed with guns. I don’t think he was talking about the Punisher walking into the JLA Satelite or whatever and opening fire with an Uzi. At any rate, he’s right that most heroes (and villains) who run around the Marvel and DC Universes could be killed with handguns. Any villain really serious about going after, say, the X-Men would do well to arm himself with a shotgun, whatever his other powers were. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/38 "2009-01-14T22:13:05Z")
> [@shy\_guy](#): > > I believe **Lochdale** was saying that the _Silver Surfer_ could take down the JLA and, additionally, that most Marvel and DC heroes could be killed with guns. I don’t think he was talking about the Punisher walking into the JLA Satelite or whatever and opening fire with an Uzi. > > At any rate, he’s right that most heroes (and villains) who run around the Marvel and DC Universes could be killed with handguns. Any villain really serious about going after, say, the X-Men would do well to arm himself with a shotgun, whatever his other powers were. Exactly. Which I why I prefer groups like the JLA or the Defenders. They are super human rather than peak humans. As such, I can suspend my disblief to say “Ok, Superman is an alien fromanother planet, if I accept that then I can accept that bullets bounce off of him”. I can’t accept that Batman can jump around endlessly and dodge bullets and not get killed in his first fight. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/39 "2009-01-15T00:36:33Z")
I’ve got a Namor miniseries from the 80’s that ends with the revelation that the villain’s father was killed by a bullet bouncing off the Submariner’s chest. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/40 "2009-01-15T00:37:23Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Exactly. Which I why I prefer groups like the JLA or the Defenders. They are super human rather than peak humans. As such, I can suspend my disblief to say “Ok, Superman is an alien fromanother planet, if I accept that then I can accept that bullets bounce off of him”. I can’t accept that Batman can jump around endlessly and dodge bullets and not get killed in his first fight. Have you read Frank Miller’s Batman Year One? What you’ve described here happens in that book [though he doesn’t quite die]. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059.md?page=3)