# When did DC & Marvel start acknowledging civilian deaths due to superhuman fights? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 13, 2009, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059 "2009-01-13T07:19:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/61 "2009-01-15T20:14:23Z")
In a strange way, Batman exerts pressure on criminals to evolve. Batman breeds stronger criminals. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/62 "2009-01-15T20:44:32Z")
You’d be a damned fool hero to kill any villain in a comic book universe full of shape shifters, aliens, sci-fi tech, and magic - all of which come into play in even the most down-to-earth “realistic” comic books like Batman & Detective. Batman’s kind of like Daredevil, and vice-versa, in that there’s a long-standing editorial fiat that they both have their lives regularly shit on (Hulk’s got this too). It’s what keeps the characters down, yet striving i.e. being heroic. The moment Batman kills the Joker this editorial magic will reveal that it wasn’t the Joker but through mind-control, magic, tech, etc. was actually someone innocent and/or someone that he cares deeply for. It is this same sort of meta-editorial law that frees villains from their jails AND tombs every time a writer wants to “play with the toys”. Batman killing \_\_\_\_\_\_ to prevent his or her “inevitable” escape and killing spree is futile in this comic-logic scenario. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ can just as easily return from the dead as s/he can escape from prison or an asylum. In addition, one long reoccurring theme running throughout nearly all Batman media is that being Batman is HARD. In a universe chock full of supermen by birth and happy accidents, Bruce Wayne represents the very pinnacle of a basic human’s potential - it would be extremely difficult for a non-superhuman to truly be Batman in both prowess and (most importantly) motivation. Secondly, Batman likes the difficulty. He even thrives on it. I think it was Morrison who bestowed the “sci-fi closet” on Batman - a room full of super and alien tech that someone with his adventures would naturally acquire. In story, he chooses not to use the Nth metal, ray guns, super serums, etc. because he claims they’re unreliable - but it’s actually owing to that editorial-based thematic concerns. Being Batman needs to be difficult - and that definitely includes repeated Pyrrhic victories over his villains. ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/63 "2009-01-15T20:54:52Z")
My edit window timed out, but I’d like to add that he chooses those repeated Pyrrhic victories over the - both logically and physically - “easy” action of killing them with bullets because its hard. Think no less than JFK’s “We Choose to go to The Moon” speech. Batman uses the methodology he does “not because [it is] easy, but because [it is] hard”. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/64 "2009-01-15T23:34:37Z")
And they can never have someone tear him down and accuse him of hypocrisy, because they’d have just too much ammo and it might devalue him. That said, I still wanna see it. Hell, I really wanted Booster Gold to attack him after what happened to BG’s friend, but what happens? Superman stops him and protects their little resident psycho. Sorry, that still bugs me. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/65 "2009-01-16T00:03:23Z")
If Batman were more like Wonder Woman, or Superman - a level headed warrior, or a truly moral man who does what’s right for no reason but that it’s right - then killing sometimes, under extreme duress - not killing the Joker in cold blood, but maybe capping him to save a hostage - would be tolerable. But, as it is, he’s been a barely suppressed psychopath since the 80s. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/66 "2009-01-16T00:23:21Z")
Spoiler for Final Crisis #6: Batman won’t kill the Joker but if you’re a dark god that’s dedicated to stripping the universe of freewill who is plunging all of reality into a hell from which it will never emerge he’ll bust a cap in your ass. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/67 "2009-01-16T13:54:46Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Not directly. One could argue that he is responsible for deaths of most of the Joker’s victims, though, because of his refusal to kill him. One could, but one would be arguing nonsense. It isn’t the Batman’s place to kill the Joker. It is the state’s place. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/68 "2009-01-16T15:48:31Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > One could, but one would be arguing nonsense. It isn’t the Batman’s place to kill the Joker. It is the state’s place. No, one would be arguing logic. The “state” in the Batman comics is either incompetent, corrupt or both and can’t or won’t keep the world safe from the Joker. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/69 "2009-01-16T16:06:06Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > No, one would be arguing logic. No, Gamera is quite right, you’d be arguing utter nonsense. NOBODY is responsible for the Joker’s actions except the Joker. Period. Not Batman, not Gordon and the Gotham PD, not the Arkham guards, or the Slab guards. Not Oracle, not the JLA, the JSA, or the Teen Titans. Not the governments of Gotham City, New Jersey, or the USA. (The government of Iran/Khandaq, is, however, culpable in his first attempt to blow up the UN.) ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/70 "2009-01-16T16:42:24Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > No, Gamera is quite right, you’d be arguing utter nonsense. > > NOBODY is responsible for the Joker’s actions except the Joker. > > Period. > > Not Batman, not Gordon and the Gotham PD, not the Arkham guards, or the Slab guards. Not Oracle, not the JLA, the JSA, or the Teen Titans. Not the governments of Gotham City, New Jersey, or the USA. (The government of Iran/Khandaq, is, however, culpable in his first attempt to blow up the UN.) Exactly this, plus IF lethal sanction is to be taken, it is the state’s place to use it. If Batman becomes the arbiter of who lives and who dies, he becomes a de facto dictator. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/71 "2009-01-16T18:31:48Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > No, Gamera is quite right, you’d be arguing utter nonsense. > > NOBODY is responsible for the Joker’s actions except the Joker. > > Period. That’s your opinion, and his. Not mine. Batman (and some of the other Supers incidentally, but mostly Batman) has an opportunity to save the lives of potentially thousands of people and he doesn’t take it. He has MORE of an opportunity than any other INDIVIDUAL in Gotham. Saying “it’s not his responsibility” is bullshit. He’s MADE it his responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/72 "2009-01-16T18:33:29Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Exactly this, plus IF lethal sanction is to be taken, it is the state’s place to use it. If Batman becomes the arbiter of who lives and who dies, he becomes a de facto dictator. He’s already set himself up as a de facto dictator in the whole Brother Eye scenario. He’s just a de facto dictator with bad judgment and no balls. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/73 "2009-01-16T19:34:23Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s your opinion, and his. Not mine. Batman (and some of the other Supers incidentally, but mostly Batman) has an opportunity to save the lives of potentially thousands of people and he doesn’t take it. He has MORE of an opportunity than any other INDIVIDUAL in Gotham. Saying “it’s not his responsibility” is bullshit. He’s MADE it his responsibility. Why is the Joker Batman’s responsibility? Why isn’t Superman to blame for not killing the Joker? Or Wonder Woman or Flash or Ambush Bug? Why not say that one of the employees at Arkham Asylum should have killed the Joker? Is every guard and nurse and janitor who worked at Arkham responsible for the Joker’s murders because they didn’t use the opportunity they had to kill him? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/74 "2009-01-16T19:41:33Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Exactly this, plus IF lethal sanction is to be taken, it is the state’s place to use it. If Batman becomes the arbiter of who lives and who dies, he becomes a de facto dictator. I’m really curious: what about a SWAT sniper who kills a bank robber who’s threatening hostages? What’s the diffirence? Fight my ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![tanstaafl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ba8739/32.png) [@tanstaafl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tanstaafl)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/75 "2009-01-16T19:42:22Z")
[Seems appropriate, somehow](http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=206#comic) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/76 "2009-01-16T20:10:20Z")
I thought the whole point of the not killing thing, as revealed in the Dark Knight Returns, is that Batman doesn’t trust himself: if he ever started killing, he’d become another Punisher. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/77 "2009-01-16T20:13:01Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I’m really curious: what about a SWAT sniper who kills a bank robber who’s threatening hostages? What’s the diffirence? Fight my ignorance. The SWAT sniper is a police officer and possesses the legitimate authority of same, not the arrogation of authority that is a vigilante’s trademark. The sniper’s actions will be reviewed; most likely he will be placed on paid leave while an investigation is conducted into the probity of his actions (though admittedly that investigation will be nominal). The SWAT sniper doesn’t wear a mask and is part of a chain of command he must respect upon pains of losing his position. None of those is true of Batman. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/78 "2009-01-16T20:26:22Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Exactly this, plus IF lethal sanction is to be taken, it is the state’s place to use it. If Batman becomes the arbiter of who lives and who dies, he becomes a de facto dictator. Which make sense to me. If you can suspend disbelief to allow Batman to survive a fight with a mugger (I can’t and dislike the character and his ilk) then I think you can easily adapt this rather convoluted logic which make sense in the comic book world he inhabits. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/79 "2009-01-16T20:52:42Z")
One of the things I liked about the “Ultimates” (Marvel’s new continuity of the Avengers) was that it acknowledged that superhuman battles would have casualties. (and also the fact that you didn’t need to know decades of marvel history). The hulk is a monster who killed hundreds of people, though Banner works for SHIELD. They work to evacuateareas where fighting is going on, protecting civilians at the sometimes expense of a quicker resolution. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059/80 "2009-01-16T22:21:42Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The SWAT sniper is a police officer and possesses the legitimate authority of same, not the arrogation of authority that is a vigilante’s trademark. The sniper’s actions will be reviewed; most likely he will be placed on paid leave while an investigation is conducted into the probity of his actions (though admittedly that investigation will be nominal). The SWAT sniper doesn’t wear a mask and is part of a chain of command he must respect upon pains of losing his position. > > None of those is true of Batman. What about “Good samaritan” laws. If I see my neighbor being raped and the rapist has a knife to her throat, I have the right (I believe…hell, I think I have an obligation) to shoot the rapist, should I stumble across that situation. I don’t think Batman should kill at the drop of a hat, but if it’s a choice between sullying his precious moral purity or risking the lives of dozens of hostages and delaying a rescue from someone he KNOWS is a multiple murderer (Joker or Two-Face, say), he should shoot. He won’t, cause the most powerful force in ANY comic book universe is the marketing people and good, marketable bad-guys aren’t very common but VERY profitable. That said, the stories that show Bats stopping COPS from shooting the Joker _have_ to be out of continuity or Batman really is a villian. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dc-marvel-start-acknowledging-civilian-deaths-due-to-superhuman-fights/481059.md?page=5)