# When did dressing 'goth' or 'punk' become trendy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 13, 2002, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098 "2002-10-13T15:39:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![l1I235](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@l1I235](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l1I235)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/41 "2002-10-17T07:36:14Z")
Wait– didn’t Beatniks wear a lot of black? And that was the 50’s!! :eek: Just kidding! ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/42 "2002-10-17T08:13:29Z")
I don’t know if I was goth, but for a while it seemed most of my friends were. Most were really cool people, though everybody has their flaws. I think “I\_Dig\_Bad\_Boys” is WAY too far into high-school trendiness to be one of the cool ones, especially if she’s telling the truth about having been into the goth culture for 15 years - even the shallowest have grown up a little by the time they start hitting my age. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/43 "2002-10-17T12:04:07Z")
I still remember my first goth experience back in 1990 during my freshman year in high school. One morning my father gave me a ride to school and we saw an extremely pale girl dressed in all black and wearing makeup to accent her paleness. My father took one look at her and said “Jesus Christ! Someone pump some blood into that girl.” Maybe she wasn’t goth maybe she was just anemic or something. Marc ---
**Author:** ![80sHairMetalMaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/8/ed655f/32.png) [@80sHairMetalMaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/80sHairMetalMaven)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/44 "2002-10-17T13:05:07Z")
Badtz–I am not into Highschool trendiness myself and I HAVE been into goth for 15 or so years…since I was 9 and my parents split up. I think I was headed that way anyway but the demise of my parent’s marriage only pushed me into it that much sooner. IDBB ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/45 "2002-10-17T15:03:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I\_Dig\_Bad\_Boys \* > \*\*The following was taken from [Goth.net](http://Goth.net)…the largest goth community on the Web. > \*\* Posts consisting entirely of pasted in material from other websites are generally frowned upon here. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Goths tend to be accepting and open minded. Just turn up to a club or event wearing all black and your already in the goth scene. > \*\* A claim that blatantly contradicts the OP. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Goths have for the most part (not unanimously of course, but mostly) dropped all forms of prejudice. > \*\* Yet the Goth subculture’s obsession with thinness and paleness is even stronger than that of mainstream American society. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/46 "2002-10-17T21:59:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by I\_Dig\_Bad\_Boys \* > \*\*Badtz–I am not into Highschool trendiness myself and I HAVE been into goth for 15 or so years…since I was 9 and my parents split up. I think I was headed that way anyway but the demise of my parent’s marriage only pushed me into it that much sooner. > > IDBB \*\* Ah, you are still in your early 20s…yeah, some of you are still weird like that. You know, age of consent laws wouldn’t bother me much even if they restricted ya from 25 and younger. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/47 "2002-10-18T00:23:17Z")
What makes goths any better then jocks, head bangers, preppies, or all the other cliques one finds in high school and college? Goths are free thinkings? I suppose, just so long as they dress like all their goth friends and think like all their goth friends. Accepting and open minded? I’ve heard to many goths make fun of others who didn’t share opinions to think that they’re accepting of other groups. Why the hell did that website have to spell magic with a k? Marc ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/48 "2002-10-18T02:06:01Z")
I find it humourous that the description of “goth” as posted claims that goths are “Accepting,” when the self-proclaimed “goth” who started the thread is complaining about newcomers into the goth scene. Riiight. This makes me equally skeptical of the claims that goths are “free of prejudice” and “Free thinkers” and have a “highly developed” sense of humour. Geez, I\_Dig\_Bad\_Boys, do you folks get shoulder sprains from patting yourself on the back so much? You aren’t cool if you consider yourself part of a “scene” or a “subculture.” You become cool when you know you’re above that sort of baloney. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/49 "2002-10-18T03:50:17Z")
The way that definition runs, it appears that everyone is a Goth except **I\_Dig\_Bad\_Boys**. This thread illustrates one of the many important points that kids should be taught about to avoid common mistakes by their peers. One day I’ll write an FAQ. 1. Avoid defining your subculture in terms of tollerance, because it is well known that deep in the heart of every subculture member is a McCarthy-like suspicion that others like you are posers. Furthermore, I should add: 1. Don’t define yourselves in opposition to society and then blast society for being intollerant toward you. 2. Avoid trying to present your group as oppressed if it is largely understood to be made up of the spoiled children of middle-class whites. 3. You do not need fewer posers. What you need is better posers. No subculture will thrive without the financial and logistic support of its fringe (i.e., `square’) members. Try to recruit people who have disposable income, or who are willing to manage bake sales and the likes. They put money in the community and act as a buffer between you and Mr. Charlie, in exchange for which they are given hipster status. It’s a good deal all around. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/angel_of_the_lord/32/2949_2.png) [@Angel\_of\_the\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_the_Lord)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/50 "2002-10-18T06:34:44Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by MGibson_ > \*\*What makes goths any better then jocks, head bangers, preppies, or all the other cliques one finds in high school and college? \*\* Absolutely nothing. I agree. What? You don’t like that? ::shrugs:: I pity anyone who has to define themselves by someone else’s defintion, who has to feel superior to someone else just to feel special. Live a life without labels. Believe me, it’ll save you on the blood pressure medication 15, 20 years down the road :). ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/51 "2002-10-18T06:45:40Z")
According to the history of rock thats been shown on pbs a few times malcolm mc lauren basically said the sex pistols was started by him to help sell the merchnadise in his clothing store I.e what most people consider punk/goth clothing today leather pants ect (which it did supposedly mclauren was able to sell the store at a nice profit after the fad had taken off ) Which is why mclauren and johnny rotten has somewhat always viewed view the sex pitols as a joke trhat was taken seriously But if you Go by this then punk started out as just another marketing scam and well everyones been had ---
**Author:** ![Hamadryad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6de8d8/32.png) [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/52 "2002-10-18T12:25:29Z")
Oh, wow! I remember the days when I had so very, very little to do with myself that I wasted time worrying about what other people were wearing! Now when I see people wearing a lot of black and posturing and sneering, I just shake my head and giggle. It takes ever so much energy to maintain that pose and it’s really not any fun at all. I’ll just haul my 32-year-old, boring, suburban housewife self and my purple hair (which is quite fetching in a french twist…and I wear KHAKIS!!!) outside and fly a kite, and I will laugh and laugh and laugh. In other words…babe, if you’ve only been wearing black and bitching about the “cold uncaring cruel world, breathlessly ripping at my psyche as the hot blood blah blah blah” for 15 years…dollface, you’re copying someone older than you TOO! (One of my favorite mean things to do used to be to get on a local BBS and post long, drawn-out goth-looking “poetry”…and see how many people responded with “OH MY Goddess, that is SO TRUE…” when I was utterly KIDDING. Goth- and punk-baiting can be fun if they take it too seriously.) ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/53 "2002-10-18T14:35:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Now when I see people wearing a lot of black and posturing and sneering Hey now, let’s not get personally offensive…😉 Yours, Azrael Abyss ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/54 "2002-10-18T15:01:09Z")
> [@](#): > > _nightshadea_ > According to the history of rock thats been shown on pbs a few times malcolm mc lauren basically said the sex pistols was started by him to help sell the merchnadise in his clothing store I.e what most people consider punk/goth clothing today leather pants ect > (which it did supposedly mclauren was able to sell the store at a nice profit after the fad had taken off ) > > Which is why mclauren and johnny rotten has somewhat always viewed view the sex pitols as a joke trhat was taken seriously > > But if you Go by this then punk started out as just another marketing scam and well everyones been had All true, except the conclusion. The Sex Pistols popularised punk, they didn’t invent it. Punk originated as an honest movement, and Malcolm McLaren very cleverly adapted an already existing subculture. ---
**Author:** ![Church\_Key\_Kid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Church\_Key\_Kid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Church_Key_Kid)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/55 "2002-10-18T15:41:14Z")
You will, without a doubt, see an upsurge of punk or goth fashion in the near future. The reason for this is due to the growth of rave fashion (shiny and colorful clothes). Rave fashion has already started to overflow into mainstream fashion. Think back to the early 90’s, when companies like the Gap started putting out flannel shirts and other grunge clothes. Those same companies are already manufacturing rave clothes. Since this form of clothing is overflowing into popular fashion, people will find that the can be different or rebel by changing into a fashion such as punk. Of course, most of these people are not actually punks, or goth or rave-goers. It’s all just fashion. So, in the next few years, you’ll see people argue about all the rave-poseurs, and talk about how they doing that years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Hamadryad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6de8d8/32.png) [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/56 "2002-10-18T19:00:02Z")
“Of course, most of these people are not actually punks, or goth or rave-goers. It’s all just fashion. So, in the next few years, you’ll see people argue about all the rave-poseurs, and talk about how they doing that years ago.” You see this already, when the Ravers mock anyone who shops at Hot Topic. ---
**Author:** ![Kiting\_Illini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e274bd/32.png) [@Kiting\_Illini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiting_Illini)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/57 "2002-10-18T19:36:11Z")
Hmmm… Free thinkers…tolerant…well developed (if sarcastic) sense of humor…dress in dark colors… Omigod! There’s a goth on my oatmeal box! ---
**Author:** ![DarkVorona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc348/32.png) [@DarkVorona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarkVorona)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/58 "2002-10-18T20:06:00Z")
Having been a Let’s-Destroy-Civilization-Punk in the late 70s/early 80s myself, and after realizing the utter futility of our goal becoming a Nothing-Matters-Anymore-Goth afterwards (which I am to this day) – I would have to say: “A GOTH IS NOTHING BUT A PUNK WHO GAVE UP.” ---
**Author:** ![DarkVorona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc348/32.png) [@DarkVorona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarkVorona)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/59 "2002-10-18T20:06:00Z")
Having been a Let’s-Destroy-Civilization-Punk in the late 70s/early 80s myself, and after realizing the utter futility of our goal becoming a Nothing-Matters-Anymore-Goth afterwards (which I am to this day) – I would have to say: “A GOTH IS NOTHING BUT A PUNK WHO GAVE UP.” ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2002, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098/60 "2002-10-18T20:50:36Z")
… I thought a Goth was someone that thought they looked good in black lipstick? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-dressing-goth-or-punk-become-trendy/132098.md?page=4)