# When Did English Conflate Kids (Baby Goats) and Kids (Human Children)? And Which Came First? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 31, 2024, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-english-conflate-kids-baby-goats-and-kids-human-children-and-which-came-first/999643 "2024-03-31T14:38:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-english-conflate-kids-baby-goats-and-kids-human-children-and-which-came-first/999643/1 "2024-03-31T14:38:06Z")
I’m going to guess, based on no evidence or research whatsoever, that English-speakers were calling youthful goats “kids” centuries before we applied the same term (colloquially) to the young of _H sapiens_. I’m also going to guess that the colloquialism for (human) children started c. 1750, again, based on no evidence or research. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-english-conflate-kids-baby-goats-and-kids-human-children-and-which-came-first/999643/2 "2024-03-31T14:50:34Z")
“Kid” as “baby goat” dates from c. 1200. “Kid” as “child” dates from c. 1590 but didn’t fully catch on until the 1840s. > **[kid | Etymology of kid by etymonline](https://www.etymonline.com/word/kid)** > > "the young of a goat," from a Scandinavian source such as Old Norse kið "young goat,"… See origin and meaning of kid. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-english-conflate-kids-baby-goats-and-kids-human-children-and-which-came-first/999643/3 "2024-03-31T16:50:26Z")
From the OED, there are also several unrelated words spelled and pronounced the same: (1) a bundle of twigs for burning or embedding in a bank to give firmness to loose soil (unknown origin, first appeared c.1350); (2) a seed-pod of a leguminous plant (unknown origin, first appeared c.1722); (3) a small wooden tub for domestic use (unknown origin; first appeared 1769); (4) nonsense, often in the form “no kid”, meaning “I am not kidding” (from the verb, first appeared 1874); (5) knowledge or a place that is known or familiar (related to _couth_, first appeared before 1400). There are also six more senses used as a verb. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2024, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-english-conflate-kids-baby-goats-and-kids-human-children-and-which-came-first/999643/4 "2024-03-31T19:30:25Z")
let me add that in German, a young goat is also referred to as a Kitz (phonetically +/- identical to kids) ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2024, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-english-conflate-kids-baby-goats-and-kids-human-children-and-which-came-first/999643/5 "2024-04-01T09:50:35Z")
Only that in this meaning, _Kitz_ in German is not limited to young goats; it’s applied to the offspring of a whole range of mammals. I think it’s most frequently applied to young deer; for young goats, alternative words, such as _Zicklein_, exist and are, at least in my perception, more common. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2024, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-english-conflate-kids-baby-goats-and-kids-human-children-and-which-came-first/999643/6 "2024-04-01T13:59:32Z")
I’ve seen that “hedum” in Latin is translated to “kid” and also referred to children. Julius Caesar made a pun on the connection. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2024, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-english-conflate-kids-baby-goats-and-kids-human-children-and-which-came-first/999643/7 "2024-04-01T14:14:43Z")
The German “Kind”, for (human) child, might also have been an influence (is that etymologically related to “Kitz”?). ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2024, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-english-conflate-kids-baby-goats-and-kids-human-children-and-which-came-first/999643/8 "2024-04-01T14:33:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > is that etymologically related to “Kitz”? Not according to Wiktionary and an online etymology dictionary that I checked. _Kind_ is said to go back to an Indo-European root for “giving life” (which is possibly also behind Latin _genus_ and words derived from that, such as “generation”), whereas _Kitz_ is apparently based on an onomatopoeic call. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2024, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-english-conflate-kids-baby-goats-and-kids-human-children-and-which-came-first/999643/9 "2024-04-01T15:12:50Z")
There’s a whole mess of words that may or may not be related and perhaps have influences on each other: _kid_, _goat_, _kit_, _kitten_, _kitling_, _chit_, _child_. The etymologies are unclear and would take a specialist to have any certainty, if it’s even possible. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2024, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-english-conflate-kids-baby-goats-and-kids-human-children-and-which-came-first/999643/10 "2024-04-01T15:57:19Z")
Etymology is not such a vague discipline. Normally, the way words change over time is not random but follows an overall pattern, such as the Great Vowel Shift in the Germanic languages. This allows linguists to retcon what the root of a word must have been long ago. We don’t have any written record of Indo-European, for instance, but many Indo-European roots have been reconstructed with a good amount of certainty.