# When did French start counting that way?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [August 8, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742 "2013-08-08T20:01:57Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/1 "2013-08-08T20:01:57Z")
Let us dredge up our memories of high school/college French. Say we’re counting pennies. Everything goes swimmingly through the first sixty-nine cents: it’s the standard “tens plus ones” that you see in Latin. Then we get to seventy, and, inexplicably, we’re now counting “sixty-ten, sixty-eleven, sixty-twelve.” And then we get to eighty and, hell, we’re counting in base twenty: “four twenties, four twenties and one…” all the way up through “four twenties and nineteen.”
And at that point we go back to normal, but Latin is sort of sighing and staring at us over the dinner table, wondering if French is really its child.
Seriously: you don’t randomly start counting in base-twenty in Latin, or in any other Romance language. When did French lose its damn mind, and why only between seventy and ninety-nine?
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### Author:  [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/2 "2013-08-08T20:15:29Z")
According to [this](http://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/219/the-number-concept/5613/chapter-7/) it was basically a Gaulish feature that was adopted into French.
> [@](#):
>
> In connection with the Celtic language, mention must be made of the persistent vigesimal element which has held its place in French. The ancient Gauls, while adopting the language of their conquerors, so far modified the decimal system of Latin as to replace the natural septante, 70, octante, 80, nonante, 90, by soixante-dix, 60-10, quatre-vingt, 4-20, and quatrevingt-dix, 4-20-10. From 61 to 99 the French method of counting is wholly vigesimal, except for the presence of the one word soixante.
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### Author:  [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/3 "2013-08-08T20:33:58Z")
And English had something of the same too - “The days of our age are threescore years and ten; and though men be so strong that they come to fourscore years : yet is their strength then but labour and sorrow;” as the Psalmist is translated in the Book of Common Prayer.
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### Author:  [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/4 "2013-08-08T21:00:13Z")
Irish has a vigesimal system too (or at least the vestiges of one - it’s vestigially vigesimal). The word for 40 means “2 twenties”; old people’s ages are stated as “4 score and three”, or whatever. This is quite common in Celtic languages, so the idea that it came from Gaulish into French seems plausible.
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### Author:  [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/5 "2013-08-08T21:29:19Z")
The question isn’t so much when did the French start doing non-decimal things, it’s when did everyone else stop.
English has score, the Scandinavian languages have snes for the same number, although it’s only Danish, to the confusion of its Scandinavian neighbours, that has based its words for 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 and 100 on it, “everyone” uses dozen and used to use gross. Norse, although purely decimal up to that point, went “nine tens”, “ten tens”, “eleven tens”, “hundred”, and some industries used “big hundred” for 120 into the 19th and even 20th century.
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### Author:  [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/6 "2013-08-08T21:49:30Z")
> [@Malacandra](#):
>
> And English had something of the same too - “The days of our age are threescore years and ten; and though men be so strong that they come to fourscore years : yet is their strength then but labour and sorrow;” as the Psalmist is translated in the Book of Common Prayer.
I’m glad you pinned this on the English translators, because that’s not how it is in the original. Hebrew is fully decimal. In fact, it is even more fully decimal than Modern English, which has standalone words for “eleven” and “twelve”, while Hebrew calls them (the equivalent of) "one&ten"and “two&ten” in the same pattern as 13-19.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/7 "2013-08-08T22:08:00Z")
Wait, translators? Do you mean to tell me that Jesus didn’t originally write those words in English?
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### Author:  [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/8 "2013-08-08T22:12:38Z")
> [@naita](#):
>
> The question isn’t so much when did the French start doing non-decimal things, it’s when did everyone else stop.
No, it’s not, because Latin does not count in base 20. Since French descends from Latin, clearly there was a point at which French did not do this, and then a later point at which it did.
The Celtic hypothesis seems the most straightforward explanation.
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/9 "2013-08-09T02:42:36Z")
[Previous thread about this topic](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=598769&highlight=vingt)
IIRC (didn’t reread the thread yet), according to posts in this thread, the Celtic origin isn’t really certain. It also includes many examples of similar ways of counting in other European languages.
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### Author:  [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/10 "2013-08-09T02:49:32Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#):
>
> No, it’s not, because Latin does not count in base 20. Since French descends from Latin, clearly there was a point at which French did not do this, and then a later point at which it did.
French descends (mostly) from Latin, but the people who spoke early French descended (mostly) from the Celts. Likely the proto-French people never switched from counting by twenties – they just switched the language in which they were doing it.
I’m reminded of some of the foreign students I went to school with who spoke very good English, but would mutter to themselves in their mother tongue while doing mental arithmetic. Even with a near complete mastery of another language for speaking, it’s hard to learn a new way to count.
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### Author:  [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/11 "2013-08-09T03:08:51Z")
> [@clairobscur](#):
>
> [Previous thread about this topic](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=598769&highlight=vingt)
>
> IIRC (didn’t reread the thread yet), according to posts in this thread, the Celtic origin isn’t really certain. It also includes many examples of similar ways of counting in other European languages.
After reading this thread again, it seems I was the poster who mentioned that, according to some sites, the Celtic origin was dubious. I honestly didn’t remember that.
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### Author:  [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/12 "2013-08-09T03:20:23Z")
[Numberphile on French Counting](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM1FFhaWj9w)
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### Author:  [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/13 "2013-08-09T03:20:51Z")
It’s worth pointing out here that Swiss French uses _septante_, _huitante_, and _nonante_ instead of _soixante-dix_, _quatre-vingts_, and _quatre-vingts-dix_, and that Belgian French uses _septante_ and _nonante_ too ([cite.](http://oxfordlanguagedictionaries.com/Public/PublicResources.html?direction=b-fr-en&sp=S/oldo/resources/fr/Varieties-of-French-fr.html)) However, I don’t have any idea when these dialects diverged from “French” French.
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### Author:  [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/14 "2013-08-09T04:23:47Z")
Fascinating stuff, and the Gaulish connection is interesting - I had no idea other languages counted that way.
> [@MikeS](#):
>
> It’s worth pointing out here that Swiss French uses _septante_, _huitante_, and _nonante_ instead of _soixante-dix_, _quatre-vingts_, and _quatre-vingts-dix_, and that Belgian French uses _septante_ and _nonante_ too ([cite.](http://oxfordlanguagedictionaries.com/Public/PublicResources.html?direction=b-fr-en&sp=S/oldo/resources/fr/Varieties-of-French-fr.html)) However, I don’t have any idea when these dialects diverged from “French” French.
So Belgians go from _septante-neuf_ to _quatre-vingts_ and then _quatre-vingt-neuf_ to _nonente_. If I ever wanted proof that languages are anything but exact sciences…
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### Author:  [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2013, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/15 "2013-08-09T08:56:34Z")
Never mind that…how about the method of counting sheep in my neck of the woods. Very much still in use. (Teesdale if you are interested…you aren’t of course)
Y[an, tan, tether, mether, pip…etc](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_tan_tethera)
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### Author:  [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2013, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/16 "2013-08-09T09:04:12Z")
> [@NinjaChick](#):
>
> Fascinating stuff, and the Gaulish connection is interesting - I had no idea other languages counted that way.
Several other languages are vigesimal, incl. Ainu, Mayan, Basque. A language ancestral to Basque was present in France before Celtic and is likely the source of Celtic vigesimal.
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### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2013, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/17 "2013-08-09T09:40:17Z")
> [@MikeS](#):
>
> and that Belgian French uses _septante_ and _nonante_ too ([cite.](http://oxfordlanguagedictionaries.com/Public/PublicResources.html?direction=b-fr-en&sp=S/oldo/resources/fr/Varieties-of-French-fr.html)) However, I don’t have any idea when these dialects diverged from “French” French.
And \*octante \*when I was there.
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### Author:  [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2013, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/18 "2013-08-09T10:10:20Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#):
>
> No, it’s not, because Latin does not count in base 20. Since French descends from Latin, clearly there was a point at which French did not do this, and then a later point at which it did.
>
> The Celtic hypothesis seems the most straightforward explanation.
As leachim pointed out, there’s no “clearly” about it, although I think it’s equally wrong to write that the reverse hypothesis is “likely” without some evidence. My point though wasn’t that the French way of counting isn’t an import with a historically discoverable transition time, it’s that the question is biased by the increasing dominance of decimal thinking in our time.
Although Latin numerals are base 10, the Romans are the ones who spread the duodecimal weights and measuring units throughout Europe and you don’t have to go that many decades back before people were comfortable thinking in twelves and twenties or tens depending on context.
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### Author:  [@Dervorin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dervorin)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2013, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/19 "2013-08-09T10:34:31Z")
> [@MikeS](#):
>
> It’s worth pointing out here that Swiss French uses _septante_, _huitante_, and _nonante_ instead of _soixante-dix_, _quatre-vingts_, and _quatre-vingts-dix_, and that Belgian French uses _septante_ and _nonante_ too ([cite.](http://oxfordlanguagedictionaries.com/Public/PublicResources.html?direction=b-fr-en&sp=S/oldo/resources/fr/Varieties-of-French-fr.html)) However, I don’t have any idea when these dialects diverged from “French” French.
Ah, my one useful potential contribution to this thread, cruelly snatched away. As one who is currently struggling to learn French to be able to converse with his SO’s Swiss family, the Swiss counting system is far more sensible. The French can mock it all they want - “four-twenties-and-three” is just silly, specially from the nation in which the basis of the decimal-based SI unit system was signed.
Then again, counting in Hindi goes “twenty-seven, twenty-eight, one-less-than-thirty, thirty, thirty-one”, so I shouldn’t really mock this.
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [August 9, 2013, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-french-start-counting-that-way/665742/20 "2013-08-09T10:47:13Z")
> [@septimus](#):
>
> Several other languages are vigesimal, incl. Ainu, Mayan, Basque. A language ancestral to Basque was present in France before Celtic and is likely the source of Celtic vigesimal.
I’ve never learned to count in Basque beyond ten and went to check - the root of 40 is 2x20, for 60 3x20, for 4 4x20, so it’s doing the same thing that French does with 60 and 80, but also with 40 (100 gets a non-scored name).
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