# When did Latin and Greek influence come into language in the British Isles? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 2, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714 "2008-04-02T20:21:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/1 "2008-04-02T20:21:12Z")
Do any Latin and Greek roots in English words date from before the Norman invasion? Thanks, Rob ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/2 "2008-04-02T20:28:16Z")
[QUOTE=sweeteviljesus] Do any Latin and Greek roots in English words date from before the Norman invasion? Thanks, Rob [/QUOTE] Many cities in England have names that go back to when the country was part of the Roman Empire, including any place name endng in -cester or -chester (from Latin “castra” for camp). So that’s from before there was an English language. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/3 "2008-04-02T21:15:48Z")
I guess I am really asking is what was left of Latin and Greek influence in the language after the post-Roman invasions? Thanks, Rob ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/4 "2008-04-02T21:20:14Z")
There was significant Latin influence due to the fact that the Church was a presence before the Norman invasion. There were even a few Latin words that the Angles and Saxon brought over with them that they had picked up while on the mainland. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/5 "2008-04-02T21:29:07Z")
BTW, the wikipedia article on [Old English](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_language) is pretty good, and can probably answer your question. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/6 "2008-04-02T21:47:54Z")
Based on what I remember from my English Historical Linguistics class, the Roman Empire didn’t leave many words behind besides place names. Medieval church Latin was a more significant influence, but it was still used mainly for ritual purposes by most people. It had nowhere near as profound an effect on the language as the Norman conquest, in which the English aristocracy was taken over by French speakers and England became a truly bilingual country for a century or two. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/7 "2008-04-02T21:58:23Z")
Alfred the Great (still the only English monarch ever to get that epithet) was among other accomplishments a skilled Latin scholar, with translations still used to his credit. The Venerable Bede introduced more than a few terms borrowed from Latin in some of his writings; one of his primary colleagues was Benedict Biscop, the -sc- being pronounced /sh/ and with a title clearly derived from _episcopos_. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/8 "2008-04-02T22:04:18Z")
[QUOTE=WF Tomba] Based on what I remember from my English Historical Linguistics class, the Roman Empire didn’t leave many words behind besides place names. Medieval church Latin was a more significant influence, but it was still used mainly for ritual purposes by most people. It had nowhere near as profound an effect on the language as the Norman conquest, in which the English aristocracy was taken over by French speakers and England became a truly bilingual country for a century or two. [/QUOTE] This description leaves out the profoundest language change in England: the Anglo-Saxons comining in between the end of the Roman empire and the arrival of the Normans. Before they arrived, people spoke Celtic dialects/languages closely related to present-day Welsh; afterwards, they spoke Germanic dialects closely related to present-day Dutch and German. The Old English that existed before the Norman Conquest had less Celtic vocabulary (apart from place names) than it had Latin vocabulary as a result of this change. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/9 "2008-04-02T22:19:55Z")
I think there needs to be some more clarity on history for this question. 100 BC: No English and no Latin in the British Isles, with the exception of a handful of Latin words borrowed into the Celtic languages (technological or trade words like the word for ‘anchor’ in Old Irish). 100 AD: No English in the British Isles. Romans are present in what-is-now England, Wales, Southern Scotland, and their language has a strong influence on the local Celtic language (what will become Welsh, Cornish, and Breton). By the time the English arrive, the Romans are long-gone, so any native Latin words are going to come in through British Celtic, mostly place names (Eccleston, Lincoln, etc.) The only Latin and Greek to come into English after this are learned borrowings or technological or trade words. It’s not as if the proto-Anglo-Saxons ever lived cheek-by-jowl with Greek speakers or speakers of Classical Latin. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/10 "2008-04-02T22:20:04Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] This description leaves out the profoundest language change in England: the Anglo-Saxons comining in between the end of the Roman empire and the arrival of the Normans. Before they arrived, people spoke Celtic dialects/languages closely related to present-day Welsh; afterwards, they spoke Germanic dialects closely related to present-day Dutch and German. The Old English that existed before the Norman Conquest had less Celtic vocabulary (apart from place names) than it had Latin vocabulary as a result of this change. [/QUOTE] Yes, the Germanic speaking tribes that invaded England would have already been using quite a few everyday words that derive from Latin. Words like kitchen, cook, mint, and even such profoundly English words as inch and pound. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2008, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/11 "2008-04-02T23:13:52Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Yes, the Germanic speaking tribes that invaded England would have already been using quite a few everyday words that derive from Latin. Words like kitchen, cook, mint, and even such profoundly English words as inch and pound. [/QUOTE] \Mint derives from Latin? I thought it was Cretan in origin.\ Thanks, Rob ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/12 "2008-04-03T02:46:29Z")
[QUOTE=sweeteviljesus] When did Latin and Greek influence come into language in the British Isles? [/QUOTE] Quite early. “Britain” and “British Isles” are both Latin names given by the Romans to these lands. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/13 "2008-04-03T09:13:59Z")
The word “mint” came into Old English from Old High German. It came into Old High German from Latin. It came into Latin from Greek. I can’t find any citation that says that it came into Greek from Cretan, whatever that is, although it may be true that the herb was first found in Crete. Furthermore, what is “Cretan,” as a language? Do you mean the Cretan dialect of Greek? Or do you mean Eteocretan, the language spoken in Crete before Greek culture took over? The only information I can find on this matter is that the word in Greek for mint probably came from some language spoken before the proto-Greeks arrived in Greece. Possibly it came from Eteocretan then. I also can’t find any citation that mint was first cultivated in Crete. Is this known? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/14 "2008-04-03T15:15:08Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] The word “mint” came into Old English from Old High German. It came into Old High German from Latin. It came into Latin from Greek. I can’t find any citation that says that it came into Greek from Cretan, whatever that is, although it may be true that the herb was first found in Crete. [/QUOTE] The “mint” term I was referring to is the place where money is made, not the stuff that goes into a _mojito_. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/15 "2008-04-03T15:23:03Z")
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net] Quite early. “Britain” and “British Isles” are both Latin names given by the Romans to these lands. [/QUOTE] Uh, sort of. Quoting John Koch, “The English proper name _Britain_ is easily traced back through written records to Latin _Brit(t)annia_. . . . There is little doubt that the ultimate source is a Celtic group name, \*_Pritanî_ ‘the Britons.’” So although Britain is via Latin, it’s not originally a Latin word. The \*Prit- still survives in Welsh _pryd_, “form, shape,” and Britain probably means something like “[Island of] the Handsome People.” The P \> B change is early, and the best guess for how it happened is that the Latins got the word from Greek geographers and circulated it in written tradition for a while before it came back into the spoken language. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/16 "2008-04-03T15:30:11Z")
[QUOTE=Wendell Wagner] Furthermore, what is “Cretan,” as a language? [/QUOTE] I just meant the language that they spoke in Minoan civilization. I heard the Greeks borrowed several words like mint and Corinth and absinthe from the language. FWIW, Rob ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/17 "2008-04-03T15:48:40Z")
[QUOTE=sweeteviljesus] I just meant the language that they spoke in Minoan civilization. I heard the Greeks borrowed several words like mint and Corinth and absinthe from the language. [/QUOTE] The Romans borrowed a lot from the Greeks, who kinda did the whole civilization thing a bit earlier. So it should come as no surprise that many Greek words made it into Latin. Also, a form of Greek remained the lingua franca of much of the Roman empire even after Greece had fallen from it’s heights of empire. But let’s not forget that English, Latin and Greece all derive from the same, original Indo-European language, so in a sense this can all be considered circular exchanges (except for words that came into the languages from outside the Indo-European world). You can see a similar process which happened in Britain between two language even more closely related-- Old English and Old Norse. We have quite a few cognates for Old Norse that survive alongside their almost identical English equivalent: shirt/skirt, bathe/bask, ditch/dike to name a few. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2008, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-latin-and-greek-influence-come-into-language-in-the-british-isles/443714/18 "2008-04-04T00:42:23Z")
John Mace writes: \> The “mint” term I was referring to is the place where money is made, not the \> stuff that goes into a mojito. Why are you replying to me and not sweeteviljesus? sweeteviljesus was the one who claimed that the word “mint” came from Cretan. He apparently meant the word for the herb, not the place where money is made, since the word for the place that money is made _definitely_ didn’t come from Cretan. It came into Old English from Old High German. It came into Old High German from Latin. It didn’t come into Latin from Greek or Cretan. That’s why I assumed that he meant the word for the herb. There’s some possibility that that sense of the word “mint” came ultimately from Cretan. sweeteviljesus, do you recall where you read that the word “mint” derived ultimately from Cretan? I can’t find any confirmation of this. Incidentally, if you’re talking about the language of Minoan Creteans, the usual name for the language is Eteocretan.