# When did people start calling the Nazis left-wing?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [February 20, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208 "2004-02-20T15:44:26Z")
**Posts on this page:** 19
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Flying\_Monk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flying_Monk)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/1 "2004-02-20T15:44:26Z")
Exactly when did this start happening? Are the people making this claim also classifying other right-wing groups such as neo-Nazis and the KKK as left-wing? (Please no “they were!” posts, I’m sure that brain-dead conversation is already being held in another thread somewhere)
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### Author:  [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/2 "2004-02-20T15:48:51Z")
There were “left” in so much as communists were “left”. They were both heavily authoritarian in nature.
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### Author:  [@gluteus\_maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluteus_maximus)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/3 "2004-02-20T15:53:41Z")
Huh?
Is there some cite for this? I’ve never heard anyone refer to Nazis as anything other than what they were… fascists… which means they were decidedly right wing.
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### Author:  [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/4 "2004-02-20T15:56:29Z")
National Socialism in its early stages (before Hitler took charge of the Party) and Marxism had some features in common, which cause some people (mostly Americans on the Right) to try to brand them as the same. The fundamental difference was that Marxism was class-based whereas Nazism was based on ‘racial identity’
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/5 "2004-02-20T15:59:04Z")
I’ve only seen it in the past couple of years - but that might be because of the SDMB. I’d never heard of the theory before.
I can have a good guess at _why_ - it’s mixing up general economic authoritarianism with left-wing economic authoritarianism. Certainly there’s a crossover between left and right at extreme levels of authoritarianism: I don’t think we could accuse Stalin of being overly liberal; then again I don’t think we could accuse Hitler of being liberal either.
I’m sure you’ve seen this before, but in case you missed it, check out [http://www.politicalcompass.org](http://www.politicalcompass.org), which is an interesting theoretical explanation of left vs. right against libertarian vs. authoritarian. They espouse a similar theory in their explanation of the fascistic [British National Party](http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/extremeright.html).
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/6 "2004-02-20T16:05:02Z")
The only people I’ve heard say that are people who are right-wing themselves, and don’t like having their position on the ideological spectrum associated with Nazism.
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### Author:  [@np\_complete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/np_complete)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/7 "2004-02-20T16:37:43Z")
I personally first encountered this inference in late 2001 or early 2002 (unfortunately I do not have any cites available, the message board where I encountered these allegations has since closed it’s politics forum), during discussions about the USA PATRIOT act.
In this case, the argument proceeded as Nazi-\>National Socialism-\>Socialism-\>(Radical) Leftist Politics.
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### Author:  [@np\_complete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/np_complete)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/8 "2004-02-20T16:46:17Z")
I have found an earlier specimin (dating from 1994) on the Google Usenet archive [here](http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=2hedcvINN2vc%40oasys.dt.navy.mil&rnum=4&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dnazi%2B%2522national%2Bsocialist%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D2hedcvINN2vc%2540oasys.dt.navy.mil%26rnum%3D4).
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### Author:  [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/9 "2004-02-20T16:59:04Z")
What **Captain Amazing** said. (" The only people I’ve heard say that are people who are right-wing themselves, and don’t like having their position on the ideological spectrum associated with Nazism.")
I first heard it on right-wing talk shows over ten years ago. No one who brought it up ever mentioned the “Night of the Long Knives” when Hitler purged (killed) the prominent members of a socialist faction in 1934, which was of course before the genocide and attempted conquest of Europe.
The talk-show point always seemed to be that brutality and tyranny are leftist characteristics.
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### Author:  [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/10 "2004-02-20T17:16:04Z")
> [@MaryEFoo](#):
>
> The talk-show point always seemed to be that brutality and tyranny are leftist characteristics.
And the proliferation of stupidity carries on. ☹
Nazis and Communists traditionally loathed each other. Their key ideologies are indeed at opposite ends of the standard right/left spectrum. Their both using oppressive regimes is immaterial to that right/left designation, though it’s probably the only way to for governments with such extreme positions to stay extant.
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### Author:  [@gluteus\_maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluteus_maximus)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/11 "2004-02-20T17:19:23Z")
> [@np\_complete](#):
>
> In this case, the argument proceeded as Nazi-\>National Socialism-\>Socialism-\>(Radical) Leftist Politics.
Hmmm…
So, the Bolsheviks (the majority) … but they weren’t.
The Moral Majority… but they aren’t.
The Republicans… support the idea of a republic, but are they empowering the citizens? Yeah, just like the People’s Republic of China republicans do.
Here in Japan, they have the Liberal Democratic Party, which is conservative and rather oligarchic, in an Asian, corporate sort of way.
So, can we rest assured that the Nazis didn’t adhere to the principles of Marx?
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### Author:  [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/12 "2004-02-20T17:26:01Z")
You have to take into account that the definitions of “left” and “right” are slightly different in different countries. The nazis considered themselves “right-winged” and as a whole they were by German standards.
In the US right those definitions seem to be more closely linked to economic aspects.
“right” seems to mean “pro free enterprise”, and “left” “interference/restrictions/welfare…”
This is not so clear-cut in Germany. Even the most conservative governments interfered heavily with our economy and had some economic positions many Americans would consider proto-socialist. The “free market” force are the “Liberale” (totally unrelated to american liberals, and especially in recent decades far from left-winged) who consider themselves in center of the political spectrum.
Although economy is a factor in the left-right distinction the more defining aspects are things like tradition, patriotism, religion (low priority by US standards), family, race (in nazi times) on the right and a class-based view of society, the belief in progress through social reforms… on the left.
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### Author:  [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/13 "2004-02-20T19:17:22Z")
here is a debate on the question on another board
> **[The High Road](https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php)**
>
> The Best Gun Forum on the Internet
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/14 "2004-02-20T21:33:48Z")
One thing to remember is that right wing != pro-capitalist. Until the second half of the 20th century almost all right-wingers were anticapitalists. They were in favor of high tariffs, state control over industry, etc. Remember Pat Buchanan protesting against the WTO, that’s how most right-wingers used to think. And the Nazis were no different, Mein Kampf has just as many scathing denunciation of capitalists and free enterprise as it does of communism and bolshevism.
Under Nazism, industrial development was to be used for the welfare of the state/people, not for the private benefit of the capitalist. Yes, the industrialist could own a factory, companies could buy and sell products. But they had no natural right to do these things, they could only do these things so long as the nation benefited.
Of course Nazism is an extreme example, but most right-wing parties were not pro-capitalist or pro-business. If you look at Le Pen in France they are extremely hostile to capitalism. In the 18th and 19th century right-wingers were in favor of nationalized industry, mercantilism, high tarrifs, and pro-agrarian policies, along with the other things we still think about from the right wing such as state churches, monarchy, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, etc.
Free trade, free markets and such are a threat to nationalism and undermine the cohesiveness of the nation, and are controlled by jews and suchlike.
Although currently, especially in the US, capitalism and free markets are associated with the right wing, this is a relatively new phenomenon. And even today the people we might call “social conservatives” are still very skeptical about “soul-less capitalism”, and feel free denouncing greedy Hollywood executives and such.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/15 "2004-02-20T21:35:37Z")
I had a political science teacher who asserted that the “Socialist” in “National Socialist” was just there because at the time most European individuals of working-class socio-economic status would not vote for a political party that did not have the word socialist in the name.
Never saw any primary sources backing his assertion up, but it certainly seems plausible to me.
On a side note, these discussions of what’s left in the US vs Europe vs etc always fascinate me. As an American, I’m frequently floored whenever anyone reminds me that politicians don’t have to be either Democrats or Republicans…
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### Author:  [@JRR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRR)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/16 "2004-02-20T22:31:18Z")
To answer the OP: in the early 80’s. This is when the right decided on a mantra that would be the driving force behind the Reagan Revolution - _big government is bad._
The Nazis were “big government” taken to its extreme - much like the Soviets, the Nazis wanted to have control over virtually every aspect of society. **The State** was clearly far better at making at making decisions than greedy, self-serving individuals, so it would make the decisions _for them._
This “big govt = bad” mantra is generally still accepted by those on the right today. Most see the left as the side encouraging massive, centralized power and reliance on the state at a surrogate mother. (hence the reason so many of us are disappointed with Bush’s massive increases in spending).
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### Author:  [@np\_complete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/np_complete)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2004, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/17 "2004-02-20T23:59:24Z")
> [@Jonathan Woodall](#):
>
> I had a political science teacher who asserted that the “Socialist” in “National Socialist” was just there because at the time most European individuals of working-class socio-economic status would not vote for a political party that did not have the word socialist in the name.
> Never saw any primary sources backing his assertion up, but it certainly seems plausible to me.
Much like [polka dots](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_019.html) or [“magnetic” patent medicines](http://www.bottlebooks.com/magnetic.htm).
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### Author:  [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/18 "2004-02-21T00:16:29Z")
The Nazi use of the word “socialism” is probably what causes the Nazis as leftists confusion. Hitler used this term mainly to appeal to the German electorate. If anything, he would have argued “Marxist” socialism was a perversion of true socialism. The Nazis and Fascists were “corporastists”. They basically wanted to return the economic structure to that of the pre-capitalist Middle Ages, where guilds predominated. But they did not oppose private ownership, nor did they advocate internationalism, or social equality. They wished to create a structure of class harmony where workers and employers were bound together for the good of the nation (and in the case of the Nazis, “race”).
How this fits into the left-right spectrum, I can’t say.
One other thing, the Nazis were certainly “big government” but, much like the , they espoused the idea that their current regime was simply a “revolution” that was to clear the path toward an eventual society which would be essentially neofeudal in nature. The war was a drive to win the “Living Space” needed for a future Reich of pioneer German farmers stretching from France to the Volga River.
In essence, the Third Reich was “right wing” because it was reactionary, and because it sought glory in an (imagined) perfect past. Of course, if the past is so great, how could it have led to the messed up situation of today?
Hitler had plenty of people to blame.
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### Author:  [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-calling-the-nazis-left-wing/230208/19 "2004-02-21T00:18:48Z")
…much like the marxists I meant (in case anyone gave a hoot). Except the marxist believed “state communism” would lead to a classeless utopia with no need for government.