# When did people start having first AND last names? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 28, 2012, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543 "2012-06-28T04:17:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/41 "2012-07-04T20:46:25Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It was funny to think that a lot of these fairly random names were going to end up being passed down, and 500 years from now some poor Cameroonian is going to wonder why his last name is “Camera.” It’s like Parsi Indians who have family names like “Pilot,” “Shipchandler,” “Merchant,” “Engineer,” “Screwwalla,” or “Contractor.” ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/42 "2012-07-04T21:30:46Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > **Hari Seldon** , IIRC what little Old Norse I learned in an upper division linguistics class, the President’s patronymic was probably Finnbogadottir; her father, in the nominative case, or, to paraphrase Mark Twain, the quiescent state of being merely mentioned, would be Finnboga. Old Norse, and modern Icelandic, which isn’t too different from it, are fascinating languages in many ways. I know, I made a mistake here; the nominative is Finnbogi. I’ve asked the mods for a correction. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/43 "2012-07-05T07:09:19Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > People would pick up last names from all kinds of things- the company they worked for (I once met a “Amadou Voila Voyage,” named after a very bad bus company), their appearance (I knew a Bouba Appareil- Camera- so named because his eyes bugged out like a camera lens), where they live in town, something notable about them (lots of Alhajis among the upper class), or after their most well-known relative. Since a lot of development was just hitting, a lot of people were just starting to get official IDs, school records, and the like. It was funny to think that a lot of these fairly random names were going to end up being passed down, and 500 years from now some poor Cameroonian is going to wonder why his last name is “Camera.” Hey, Cámara _is_ a Spanish lastname and nothing wrong with it. In this case, it comes not from the meaning of “machine used to take pictures”, but from the meaning of “private room”: a _sirviente de cámara_ was the person who helped a lord or lady dress, _camarilla_ originally meant the group of people who were so much in someone’s confidence that they would be allowed into their private rooms… The people around the table with me right now include, among others: Wolf from [Small town] Of-the-sailmakers The frank one Place where canes grow Dark one Smith ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/44 "2012-07-05T09:27:54Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > … Thorfinn Karlsefni, who is supposed to have made a voyage to North America around the same time as Leif Erikson. Thorfinn just spotted land, but he never went ashore and it was his story that inspired Leif Eriksson to go there. > [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > … the President’s patronymic was probably Finnbogadottir; her father, … would be Finnbogi. Which I explained [a week ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15216523&postcount=6). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/45 "2012-07-05T13:31:44Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > It still wasn’t that unusual to only have one name. I knew a guy who had to travel to the US on work, and he had a hell of a time getting a visa with only one name. Why is this? Surely, if we know there are multiple places in the world where there are no surnames, the US government knows it, too. To contribute to the thread, in many places in the UK and Ireland where Celtic languages are spoken, there is one “official” name, used in English, and then the vernacular given name - surname, both of which may be entirely different. Part of the reason for this is the small number of surnames in a given area, requiring a better descriptor, and part of it is the tradition of surnames being truly patronymic and traditionally given in multiple generations. A third part is that English speakers often can’t pronounce the local names and it’s just easier to hand them one they can. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/46 "2012-07-05T17:53:46Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Why is this? Surely, if we know there are multiple places in the world where there are no surnames, the US government knows it, too. > > To contribute to the thread, in many places in the UK and Ireland where Celtic languages are spoken, there is one “official” name, used in English, and then the vernacular given name - surname, both of which may be entirely different. Part of the reason for this is the small number of surnames in a given area, requiring a better descriptor, and part of it is the tradition of surnames being truly patronymic and traditionally given in multiple generations. A third part is that English speakers often can’t pronounce the local names and it’s just easier to hand them one they can. Even where English names are used, in rural areas a handful of surnames can dominate to the point that they’re pretty much useless. So names like Paddy “the shap” (the shopkeeper) etc. spring up. You’d still sometimes also get the Grandad’s name’s- Dad’s name’s - then person’s name, for example, Mickey’s Frankie’s Charlie in a situation where the surname is very common and indeed the first name is too. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/47 "2012-07-05T18:14:21Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Why is this? Surely, if we know there are multiple places in the world where there are no surnames, the US government knows it, too. I think the US government knows about it, but the ability for people to deal with it practically across all levels may be a bit underdeveloped. I’d imagine there is US government computer software out there that simply won’t move foward without two names fields, and the hapless clerks dealing with this may have no way to deal with unusual circumstances. My friend eventually got his paperwork by just using his first name twice, but before he went there was some worry that he’d get caught in a bureaucratci mess because the name on his US paperwork wouldn’t exactly match the name on the Cameroonian paperwork. US immigration is not particularly known for wanting to work with you and make sure your problem is resolved. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/48 "2012-07-05T18:20:31Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Actually, I seem to recall that in Germany, at some point the law made family names mandatory and there were many cases where Jews were forced to take family names, sometimes rather insulting ones invented by gentile officials. Is that where those people named “Putz” come from? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/49 "2012-07-05T18:32:07Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Why is this? Surely, if we know there are multiple places in the world where there are no surnames, the US government knows it, too That doesn’t mean they’re happy about it. The Spanish government knows that Portuguese folk put maternal lastname before paternal one, but they still give Portuguese people a hard time about it. There have been multi-word lastnames in Spain since before they became family names; many of our most famous historical figures had them (Miguel _de Cervantes_ and Rodrigo _Díaz de Vivar_ come to mind); yet there are Spanish-government computer programs which can’t deal with multi-word lastnames. When self check-in first became available, I was in the US: self check-in machines insisted in calling me Ms. De… de (from) being the second word in my lastname (firstwordinfirstname las t name got treated as firstname middlename lastname appendix). ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/50 "2012-07-05T20:25:38Z")
> [@Floater](#): > > Glad to be able to help out: _Vigdís Finnbogadóttir_ = daughter of _Finnbogi_. The - **a** - is, I believe, a special case when the first word ends with a wovel, it should normally be - **s** - as in _Björk Guðmundsdóttir_ = daughter of _Guðmundur_. I missed this earlier. There’s a little more to it than just whether the father’s name ends with a vowel. Icelandic has several declensions, or classes, of nouns each with its own rule for forming the genitive singular. Depending on which it is, a final /r/ may change to /s/, or a final hard /th/ sound (like in “the”) may add the ending /-ar/. I believe no feminine names use /s/ to form the genitive, but more typically use /-r/ or /-ar/. Again, there are a number of different noun classes here. Historically, the mother’s name may not have mattered much but I’d be surprised if, today, some Icelanders don’t use a “matrinymic”. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/51 "2012-07-05T20:27:31Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > “matrinymic”. The word you were looking for is matronymic. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/52 "2012-07-05T22:52:56Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The word you were looking for is matronymic. Of course, yes. 'Twas but a typo, as you’ll observe that the “i” and “o” keys are adjacent. 😉 Not. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/53 "2012-07-05T23:37:26Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The people around the table with me right now include, among others: > Wolf from [Small town] > Of-the-sailmakers > The frank one > Place where canes grow > Dark one > Smith I won’t ask you to name names, but these are interesting. Assuming you are posting from your native country, I wonder what type of cane plant grows there, or if it could refer to some other crop we don’t usually think of as a cane plant (i.e., other than sugar or bamboo). ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/54 "2012-07-06T01:11:18Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > I won’t ask you to name names, but these are interesting. Assuming you are posting from your native country, I wonder what type of cane plant grows there, or if it could refer to some other crop we don’t usually think of as a cane plant (i.e., other than sugar or bamboo). Even in English, cane originally referred to, well, [cane](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arundo_donax). There was no need to specify because there was only one type of cane. When sugar cane and bamboo cane became more common, the similarity to cane was noted and the same term was applied to them. But cane remained cane. It’s interesting that, because of global trade, there are now people even in temperate regions who think of cane solely as the tropical bamboo cane and sugar cane and have totally forgotten the original cane. Which is another reason why the derivations of surnames become almost impossible to ascertain after a few hundred years. ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543/55 "2012-07-06T08:12:32Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Historically, the mother’s name may not have mattered much but I’d be surprised if, today, some Icelanders don’t use a “matrinymic”. I can only speak for Swedish culture, but this is how it worked. Men generally acknowledged their offspring, be they intra- or extramarital, and they received their father’s name as a patronymic. The only times, when this didn’t happen, were when the father was totally unknown and more often than not the mother can have been said to have questionable morals being engaged in the World’s oldest profession. Keeping this in mind I find it hard to keep a straight face whenever I come across some radical feminist who has assumed a matronymic instead of her real surname and wonder if she knows what she is implying about her mother. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-people-start-having-first-and-last-names/626543.md?page=2)