# When did punctuation start? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 29, 2007, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463 "2007-10-29T17:04:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/1 "2007-10-29T17:04:30Z")
Has writing always included punctuation? I doubt it, but I have no (clear) answer! ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/2 "2007-10-29T18:59:14Z")
Interesting OP. Because the ‘history’ of punctuation would have to be apparent somewhere. If you can’t write, you cant punctuate. (Voice Inflection notwithstanding.) Therefore, if punctuation does exist, wouldn’t someone have written it down? Then again, I thought it was INCREDIBLY clever for Thomas Edison to make his first phonograph recording inlcude “These are the first words spoken into the phonogrpah.” ((Or something very similar to that)). So perhaps the idea to write down these rules for writing … remained ‘unwritten rules’ for some time? ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/3 "2007-10-29T19:35:35Z")
Inscriptions which survive from the ancient world–such as the one on [the western face of the Arch of Constantine](http://catholic-resources.org/AncientRome/rom2-23.jpg)–commonly omitted spaces between words, much less used any punctuation (though some do include raised dots between words). However, the Hellenic Greeks (3rd cet. BCE) certainly developed a system of accents/breathings used to help foreigners pronounce the language, and the Athenian playwrights are said to have included markings in the text to aid the actors in recitation, something that sounds a lot like punctuation. Medieveal manuscripts do occasionally show punctiation (mostly from ligatures/abbreviations like &), but I would guess there wasn’t really a consitent standard of punctuation until the printing press exposed the need for one. BTW, has anyone read the recent book [“Eats, Shoots, and Leaves”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_&_Leaves)? I wonder if it contains a history of pronounciation… ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/4 "2007-10-29T19:36:10Z")
I think I remember hearing that the Romans simply ran it all together and the reader had to figure it out. on a tangential note, I’ve seen examples of monastic manuscripts where the writer had to go back and insert a sentence by writing it in the margin with an arrow pointing to the correct place. Sloppy, to be sure. But at least you wouldn’t waste a really nicely illuminated page. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/5 "2007-10-29T19:47:10Z")
Have you ever tried to read medieval manuscripts? Not only do the words run together, without punctuation, but the letters look alike. As T.H. White showed in his afterword to “The Bestiary” (A fine book that I heartily recommend), it was often hard to tell “mini” from “minimuni”. And it didn’t help that they’d frequently leave most of the letters out of a frequentkly-used word, maybe indicating the omission by placing a line above the word. I’d be willing to bet that the introduction of printing and movable type really brought about wide-scale use of standardized punctuation. I’m pretty sure the book **Light Elements** 9a collection of humorous articles from Omni or some such magazine) has a semiserious chapter on this. I’ll have to dig out my copy at home. The article I’m thinking of contains one of my favorite lines from a supposed pop-science book,. It goes something like this: > [@](#): > > These punctuation marks (periods) were extremely small. In fact, it would take _one_ of them to equal the size of the punctuation mark at the end of this sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/6 "2007-10-29T19:51:13Z")
[QUOTE=Hypno-Toad] I think I remember hearing that the Romans simply ran it all together and the reader had to figure it out. [/QUOTE] Worse yet, ancient Hebrew dropped all the vowels, and only wrote down the consonants. That makes it even harder for a modern reader to figure out. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/7 "2007-10-29T19:51:42Z")
Light Elements, by Judith Stone. From her column in **Discover** magazimne: > **[Light Elements: Essays in Science from Gravity to Levity: Stone, Judith:...](https://www.amazon.com/Light-Elements-Essays-Science-Gravity/dp/0345366085)** > > Light Elements: Essays in Science from Gravity to Levity \[Stone, Judith\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Light Elements: Essays in Science from Gravity to Levity ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/8 "2007-10-29T20:33:56Z")
I think the Carolingians developed some standardized punctuation in their big 9th c script reform, but then it went out of style again. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/9 "2007-10-29T20:51:39Z")
[QUOTE=CJJ\*] BTW, has anyone read the recent book [“Eats, Shoots, and Leaves”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_&_Leaves)? I wonder if it contains a history of pronounciation… [/QUOTE] I read sections of the book for my staff report, [What’s the origin of the question mark?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mquestionmark.htm) and didn’t notice anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/10 "2007-10-29T20:54:34Z")
Responding to the OP: > [@](#): > > In the beginning, there was no punctuation. So says Malcolm Parkes in Pause and Effect: An Introduction to the History of Punctuation in the West (1993): > > > [@](#): > > > > In Antiquity the written word was regarded as a record of the spoken word, and texts were usually read aloud. But from the sixth century onwards attitudes to the written word changed: writing came to be regarded as conveying information directly to the mind through the eye … New conventions, such as word separation, features of layout and punctuation, were developed to make it easier for readers to extract the information conveyed in the written medium. > > During the Middle Ages, Parkes notes, Latin became the common tongue of Europe. Punctuation and other conventions were developed to help those learning Latin as a foreign language. “Punctuation became an essential component of written language. Its primary function is to resolve structural uncertainties in a text, and to signal nuances of semantic significance which might otherwise not be conveyed at all, or would at best be much more difficult for a reader to figure out.” [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mquestionmark.htm](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mquestionmark.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/11 "2007-10-29T21:07:06Z")
[QUOTE=Hypno-Toad] . . .on a tangential note, I’ve seen examples of monastic manuscripts where the writer had to go back and insert a sentence by writing it in the margin with an arrow pointing to the correct place. Sloppy, to be sure. But at least you wouldn’t waste a really nicely illuminated page. [/QUOTE] My favorite had, not just an arrow, but an illumination of construction workers using a hoist with a block and tackle to lift the words up into place and a guide worker pointing to the place in the text where they’re to be fitted. Now that’s making the most of an error. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/12 "2007-10-29T22:24:39Z")
[QUOTE=Gfactor] I read sections of the book for my staff report, [What’s the origin of the question mark?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mquestionmark.htm) and didn’t notice anything like that. [/QUOTE] My edition has this on page 78 (That’ll Do, Comma) [/QUOTE=Lynne Truss; Eats, Shoots and Leaves] Within the 70 years it took for Aldus Manutius the Elder to be replaced by Aldus Manutius the Younger, things changed so drastically that in 1566 A.M. the Younger was able to state that the main object of punctuation was the clarification of syntax. [QUOTE] There’s no actual timeline of punctuation in the book, but the above quote was the nearest I found to a dated paradigm shift where punctuation began to serve the purpose we understand today. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/13 "2007-10-29T23:01:55Z")
[QUOTE=CJJ\*] BTW, has anyone read the recent book [“Eats, Shoots, and Leaves”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_&_Leaves)? I wonder if it contains a history of pronounciation… [/QUOTE] I have. There’s little about the history, just a bunch of rants about how no one does it the way Lynne Truss assumes is correctly. It is useless as a guide to anything and is just an old fart complaining about how things aren’t the way _she_ was taught – even if what she was taught is glaringly incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/14 "2007-10-30T00:02:07Z")
Nicholson Baker wrote an article on the history of punctuation. It originally appeared in a magazine back in 1993 but I’ve also seen it included in a couple of books. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/15 "2007-10-30T00:55:11Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] I have. There’s little about the history, just a bunch of rants about how no one does it the way Lynne Truss assumes is correctly. It is useless as a guide to anything and is just an old fart complaining about how things aren’t the way _she_ was taught – even if what she was taught is glaringly incorrect. [/QUOTE] There’s a lot about the history, it’s included in small snippets throughout the book, just not in an academic manner. Many of the ‘rants’ are lifted (and attributed) to the serious researchers listed in the extensive bibliography. The author makes the point herself, several times in the text, that there is no hard and fast rule that cannot change with time. Ellipses versus dashes; The Oxford rather than Cambridge comma for two examples. She also admits to using grammar ‘incorrectly’ herself where strict formality isn’t warranted - an email greeting of ‘Jane!’ instead of ‘Dear Jane,’. It’s supposed to be an entertaining read. Some of us get the joke, others don’t. She’s not an ‘Old Fart’ in this household, and it’s a shame you felt the need to attack someone who can’t defend their work. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/16 "2007-10-30T03:25:12Z")
Written Japanese did not use punctuation until after Western languages were introduced. Formal invitations even now often do not use punctuation. ---
**Author:** ![tonedef](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@tonedef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonedef)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/17 "2007-10-30T05:49:44Z")
[QUOTE=Hypno-Toad] I think I remember hearing that the Romans simply ran it all together and the reader had to figure it out. [/QUOTE] As soon as i read that i though straight away thought of the importance of punctuation! “Stop let my uncle jack off the horse” ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/18 "2007-10-30T07:50:58Z")
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net] Worse yet, ancient Hebrew dropped all the vowels, and only wrote down the consonants. That makes it even harder for a modern reader to figure out. [/QUOTE] Nitpick: it never had vowels in the first place. Vowels appeared with Greek writing. Because of the structure of the languages, it makes sense to drop the vowels for semitic tongues. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/19 "2007-10-30T09:47:18Z")
How does it make sense for semitic language structures to drop vowels? ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463/20 "2007-10-30T10:11:46Z")
[QUOTE=maggenpye] How does it make sense for semitic language structures to drop vowels? [/QUOTE] In semitic languages, related words share the same consonants. These consonant clusters are called “roots”. See here for a short discussion of roots in Arabic: [Brief List of Arabic Word Roots](http://wahiduddin.net/words/arabic_glossary.htm) In semitic languages, two words that are made up of the same sequence of consonants are going to be related, you can tell them apart from the context. However, this is not the case in Greek. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-punctuation-start/424463.md?page=2)