# When did religion jump the shark for great thinkers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2010, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373 "2010-05-31T11:07:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/41 "2010-06-01T04:29:48Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Well that must be true since two of the people I mentioned, Gandhi and MLK, didn’t really accomplish anything of note. No, they both had great accomplishments; political accomplishments. Why? Because greatness is possible in politics, but not possible in religion; no more than you can be a “great Tic-Tac-Toe player”. It is too crude and sterile a medium for greatness. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/42 "2010-06-01T04:52:03Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Name one besides Galileo and Giordano Bruno. Those are the only two scientists I ever hear named who were persecuted by the Church, and with Bruno, it had much more to do with his theology than his science. I admit that [this particular site](http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-sciencechristianity.htm) seems a but over the top, but it provides a who’s who of scientists who were perseuted or denounced in one form or another. It also promoted a chilling environment in which sceintists were afraid to pursue certain areas of study, of publish results that might offend the church. Aside from what the church may or may not have done to individuals, it attacked science itself, or rather the conclusions drawn that were a threat to its belief structure. And it continued to do this in the face of ever-increasing evidence to the contrary. Perhaps I should rephrase my earlier post to say that it was the church’s attitude toward science which turned so many intellectuals away from it. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/43 "2010-06-01T04:52:12Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Yeah, that’s exactly what I was saying. Then what did the commentaries and actions of Calvin tell us to do that we all simply need to follow and get to work on? And if you are going to lump several major religious thinkers/prophets together from several different and completely contradictory religions together, it’s going to be difficult to get to work on all of their edicts, philosophies, commandments, and rules at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/44 "2010-06-01T05:21:47Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Well, I don’t think that Jesus, Paul, or Buddha were controlling any of the systems at the time. I would, however, like to live under a system constructed by Jesus & administered by Paul, and to some extent, I already do as a member of the general Christian Church. > [@FriarTed](#): > > Name one besides Galileo and Giordano Bruno. Those are the only two scientists I ever hear named who were persecuted by the Church, and with Bruno, it had much more to do with his theology than his science. An example coming from the early days of the church, one should not ever forget what happened to Hypatia: > [@](#): > > From the little historical information about Hypatia that survives, it appears that she invented the plane astrolabe, the graduated brass hydrometer and the hydroscope, with Synesius of Greece, who was her student and later colleague. > > Hypatia dressed in the clothing of a scholar or teacher, rather than in women’s clothing. She moved about freely, driving her own chariot, contrary to the norm for women’s public behavior. She exerted considerable political influence in the city. > > Orestes, the governor of Alexandria, like Hypatia, was a pagan (non-Christian). Orestes was an adversary of the new Christian bishop, Cyril, a future saint. Orestes, according to the contemporary accounts, objected to Cyril expelling the Jews from the city, and was murdered by Christian monks for his opposition. > > Cyril probably objected to Hypatia on a number of counts: She represented heretical teachings, including experimental science and pagan religion. She was an associate of Orestes. And she was a woman who didn’t know her place. Cyril’s preaching against Hypatia is said to have been what incited a mob led by fanatical Christian monks in 415 to attack Hypatia as she drove her chariot through Alexandria. They dragged her from her chariot and, according to accounts from that time, stripped her, killed her, stripped her flesh from her bones, scattered her body parts through the streets, and burned some remaining parts of her body in the library of Caesareum. So, as a cafeteria Catholic/agnostic, I have to say that I’m glad that we are not using the early Church constructions. As for when did the church jumped the shark? I think it was when “the age of the Inquisition and other torture-based persecutions had finally passed.” Still, as Bertram Russell could tell you if he was alive, organized religion in modern times can still prevent people with heretical thoughts from working in academia. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/45 "2010-06-01T05:23:43Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Well, I don’t think that Jesus, Paul, or Buddha were controlling any of the systems at the time. I would, however, like to live under a system constructed by Jesus & administered by Paul, and to some extent, I already do as a member of the general Christian Church. Uh-huh. When and where, if ever, did such a system of governance? What would it take to set up such a system in say, the United States, and what would have to be sacrificed along the way? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/46 "2010-06-01T05:39:43Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Aside from what the church may or may not have done to individuals, it attacked science itself, or rather the conclusions drawn that were a threat to its belief structure. And it continued to do this in the face of ever-increasing evidence to the contrary. Besides being against evolution, we have guys like Inhofe telling us that his deity will protect us from global warming, so we do not need to do anything about it. I do think that religion is a huge reason why we have what amounts to a witch hunt against climate scientists. [http://climateprogress.org/2010/05/29/cuccinelli-michael-mann-university-virigina/](http://climateprogress.org/2010/05/29/cuccinelli-michael-mann-university-virigina/) > [@](#): > > The University of Virginia has petitioned a state court to “set aside” Attorney General Cuccinelli’s not-so-civil Civil Investigative Demand that it turn over a mass of former UVa Prof. Michael Mann’s documents and e-mail correspondence with 39 other scientists. The university’s action shows some backbone and exemplifies the pushback we should see in responding to political witch hunts aimed at the science community. The petition defends academic freedom and indicates how Cuccinelli’s demands fail to meet the basic requirements of state law. [http://climateprogress.org/2010/02/25/sen-inhofe-inquisition-seeking-ways-to-criminalize-and-prosecute-17-leading-climate-scientists/](http://climateprogress.org/2010/02/25/sen-inhofe-inquisition-seeking-ways-to-criminalize-and-prosecute-17-leading-climate-scientists/) > [@](#): > > Senator James Inhofe, ranking Republican on the Environment and Public Works Committee, has gone a step beyond promoting his long-notorious global warming denialist propaganda. He is now using the resources of the Senate committee to seek opportunities to criminalize the actions of 17 leading scientists who have been associated with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change assessment reports. A report released by Inhofe’s staff on February 23 outlines this classic Joe McCarthyite witch-hunt: page after page of incorrect and misleading statements, a list of federal laws that allegedly may make scientists subject to prosecution by the U.S. Justice Department, and a list of names and affiliations of 17 “key players” in the “CRU Controversy” over stolen e-mails and their connections with IPCC reports. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/47 "2010-06-01T06:18:01Z")
I dunno about “jumping the shark” but evolution was religion’s death-blow. Ever since then religion has been a zombie, eating the brains of the unwary, dead but still dangerous. And what great thinker concerns themselves with zombies? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/48 "2010-06-01T06:55:19Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Honestly, I think the turning point wasn’t really about any of these great discoveries. It was about the Church’s reaction to discoveries and theories which challenged the accepted understanding of the universe. Agreed. The Church had so much invested in Aristotle and others that they were unwilling to adapt. Further, they insisted on treating the Bible’s creation story literally, rather than as parable. Aside from Galileo, there was Darwin. Outside Christianity you have to look no further than Islam which flourished until the religious authorities put a stop to science in the 11th or 12th century. ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/49 "2010-06-01T07:27:28Z")
I’m going to go ahead and give an unrealistically precise moment for the shift from religion to science: Saturday, November 1, 1755, at about 10 o’clock in the morning. This was the moment of the great Lisbon earthquake, which was incredibly destructive, killing probably fifty thousand people. The mid-eighteenth century was the time when many great minds were in limbo, as it were, between the power of religion and the power of science. The balance point was the question of theodicy, that is, the question of why God allows evil to exist. Many brilliant minds tried to come to terms with the apparent contradiction between God’s infinite goodness and the existence of evil, of which the best-known response was that somehow, the world we live in is the best of all possible worlds. The Lisbon earthquake pretty much destroyed that possibility. While the pendulum would have swung toward science eventually, because the earthquake occurred on All Saints’ Day at a time when a large part of the population of the city was at mass, over the next ten years, the theodicy question more or less disappeared from the minds of the “great” thinkers, as they came to conclude that God was simply not as great as He should be. It turns out, then, that the reason for the shift is, I believe, a moral one. If people question whether God is good, and find Him wanting, there ensues, naturally, an attempt to replace the rules that religion claims are justified in His name with something else. This something else, which in the event turned out to be moral utilitarianism, is disconnected from the divine and necessarily much more prosaic and mundane, and most importantly, not a way to any sense of enlightenment or significant spirituality. Putting the moment of the shift much before this doesn’t work too well, methinks. While there were many scientific advances in the seventeenth century, and while these advances did significantly affect the thought of the eighteenth, those who made the advances were generally quite religious. Newton’s theory, for example, does not allow for matter to interact at a distance, and it does so, as in gravitation, by a direct act of God. Putting it later doesn’t work either, because in the nineteenth century, the idea that nature has solid, immutable, self-enforcing laws was well established. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/50 "2010-06-01T11:33:24Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > At one point in our history, all of the scholars, philosophers and general thinkers of any era devoted a large percentage of their research/pondering/life to attaining religious and/or spiritual enlightenment. I’d argue that they’re still doing it - great minds like Sagan, Dawkins, Dennett. Religionists just don’t like the enlightenment they come up with. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/51 "2010-06-01T11:54:01Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > What about folks like Ghandi and MLK? I’ve read a bit by John Selby Spong and I’d say he qualifies. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > Well that must be true since two of the people I mentioned, Gandhi and MLK, didn’t really accomplish anything of note. > [@cosmosdan](#): > > The OP can correct me but the idea of being a great thinker isn’t just about science or theology. > > It’s also about the nature of man’s relationship to his fellow man and issues of justice, equlaity, the nature of love, forgiveness, compassion, etc. Philosophy and sociology are are cousins to thier religious heritage. “Great thinker” implies an acute intelligence that can solve complex problems as well as understand and interpret complex systems. There really is nothing difficult to grasp about “compassion” or “equality” - it’s just a perspective we’ve come to consider as noble. What made Gandhi and MLK noteworthy was that they were incessantly stubborn in pursuit of such ideals. They were also great at public speaking & publicity stunts. That doesn’t qualify them as “great thinkers” - just good showmen. I don’t know as much about Gandhi but I doubt MLK had an IQ much higher than average. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/52 "2010-06-01T12:01:55Z")
> [@RadicalPi](#): > > While the pendulum would have swung toward science eventually, because the earthquake occurred on All Saints’ Day at a time when a large part of the population of the city was at mass, over the next ten years, the theodicy question more or less disappeared from the minds of the “great” thinkers, as they came to conclude that God was simply not as great as He should be. > > It turns out, then, that the reason for the shift is, I believe, a moral one. If people question whether God is good, and find Him wanting, there ensues, naturally, an attempt to replace the rules that religion claims are justified in His name with something else. This something else, which in the event turned out to be moral utilitarianism, is disconnected from the divine and necessarily much more prosaic and mundane, and most importantly, not a way to any sense of enlightenment or significant spirituality. So your argument is that it happened at _ **exactly** _ the right moment to make us philosophically opt for a moral shift to more prosaic conclusions? Almost as if – :eek: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/53 "2010-06-01T12:31:57Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > “Great thinker” implies an acute intelligence that can solve complex problems as well as understand and interpret complex systems. There really is nothing difficult to grasp about “compassion” or “equality” - it’s just a perspective we’ve come to consider as noble. What made Gandhi and MLK noteworthy was that they were incessantly stubborn in pursuit of such ideals. They were also great at public speaking & publicity stunts. That doesn’t qualify them as “great thinkers” - just good showmen. I don’t know as much about Gandhi but I doubt MLK had an IQ much higher than average. Having a basic grasp of the definition of compassion and equality is a far cry from striving for a deeper understanding, working to communicate that to the masses, organizing an effective movement, and intelligently challenging the opposing authorities over a period of years. MLK studied and included the principles Gandhi taught. You’d be hard pressed to read Gandhi’s writings and dismiss him as a showman rather than great thinker. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/54 "2010-06-01T12:41:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, they both had great accomplishments; political accomplishments. Why? Because greatness is possible in politics, but not possible in religion; no more than you can be a “great Tic-Tac-Toe player”. It is too crude and sterile a medium for greatness. You’re creating a disctinction which I don’t think is relevant to the OP, although the OP is a a little unclear. If the question is , are there great thinkers among the religious and spiritual then the answer is yes. Aren’t thier scientists and scholars who are believers or spiritually inclined? If the question is are thier great thinkers who focus primarily on religion and spirituality I think the answer is also yes but that’s a much smaller pool. Religion and spirituality have always been involved in the greater philosophical issues that I mentioned before, sometimes on opposing sides as different groups were more dogmatic or less dogmatic ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/55 "2010-06-01T13:14:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > There was a time, for quite a while, when the physical and the metaphysical were essentially wrapped up as the same thing. All the way back to the Greek philosophers, that is the case. The Greek philosophers provided an earlier example of the phenomenon – they didn’t take their jerkass-gods pantheon seriously as a source of either moral insight or ontological explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/56 "2010-06-01T13:22:03Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Having a basic grasp of the definition of compassion and equality is a far cry from striving for a deeper understanding, working to communicate that to the masses, organizing an effective movement, and intelligently challenging the opposing authorities over a period of years. > > MLK studied and included the principles Gandhi taught. You’d be hard pressed to read Gandhi’s writings and dismiss him as a showman rather than great thinker. We need a Ghandi in the White House. MLK in The House and Buddha in The Senate. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/57 "2010-06-01T13:37:46Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > We need a Ghandi in the White House. MLK in The House and Buddha in The Senate. Instead, we have about 300 Jerry Falwells. Not a 300 which will sacrifice themselves for their country, but a 300 that will sacrifice their country for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/58 "2010-06-01T13:50:52Z")
Am I the only one who thinks that a Ghandi in the White House would be bad? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/59 "2010-06-01T13:57:32Z")
> [@Perciful](#): > > We need a Ghandi in the White House. MLK in The House and Buddha in The Senate. We at least need people who are as concerned about the welfare of the country as a whole as much as thier own agenda or the agenda of thier party and financial benifactors. That would mean a deeper understanding and desire for certain socialogical and philosophical principles. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/60 "2010-06-01T14:00:01Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Am I the only one who thinks that a Ghandi in the White House would be bad? The parties wouldn’t be as fun [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373.md?page=4)