# When did religion jump the shark for great thinkers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2010, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373 "2010-05-31T11:07:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/101 "2010-06-01T21:34:15Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Many abolitionist of the 19th century were motivated by their religion. The Grimké sisters, John Brown, and father and daughter Stowe are just a few of the more prominent abolitionist I can think of off the top of my head who were motivated by their religious beliefs. The Civil War doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It resulted from years of abolitionist agitation. As for the 1960s, sorry. The FBI weren’t exactly the champions of the Civil Rights movement. Abolitionists may have “fanned the flames”, but I maintain my position that it took armies to actually end slavery. As to the 1960s, I remeber seeing the news from that time. Too often, the local “law” and the local politicians refused to give in and used force to maintain the status quo, until they in turn were forced to change by someone bigger. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/102 "2010-06-01T21:42:36Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Back to the OP … maybe it would be helpful to look for important breakthroughs to identify great religious thinkers. For example, if we want to justify Einstein as a great thinker, we can point to his work on relativity. He came up with a brilliant new idea that revolutionized the world. > > What was the most important recent breakthrough in theology? What new, creative work by a great religious thinker has changed the way we think about God, or creation, or man’s purpose in the universe? Dawkins? If you define great thinkers as those who have novel ideas and thereby change the way things are generally viewed, then in the forum of religion your great thinkers of late will have been the ones who _break_ from the traditions of organized religion. So Martin Luther (the original) would qualify… Who’s come after him? Joseph Smith? L Ron Hubbard maybe? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/103 "2010-06-01T21:47:25Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > It’s pretty closed minded to fall into the trap of beliveing that science and religion are somehow incapatible or adversary to each other. > > We may see fewer religious scientists today, but we see fewer religious people in general (especially in places like Europe), so that makes sense in terms of numbers. But it’s a fallacy to think that more science = less religion. They’re unrelated. While this probably accounts for the majority of non-believing scientists, it also appears to be the case that scientists (especially the more “prestigious” ones) are less religious as a group than the general population. You’d have to account for that in _some_ way. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/104 "2010-06-01T21:51:43Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > You couldn’t be more wrong. Science is the method by which we understand the physical world. It is completely uninterested and agnostic about the non-material world on which religion focuses. Science has a lot of things to say about “non-material” things. I think you meant to say “undetectable” or “metaphysical” or something like that; you know, the stuff we can only speculate about. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/105 "2010-06-01T21:53:29Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Back to the OP … maybe it would be helpful to look for important breakthroughs to identify great religious thinkers. For example, if we want to justify Einstein as a great thinker, we can point to his work on relativity. He came up with a brilliant new idea that revolutionized the world. > > What was the most important recent breakthrough in theology? What new, creative work by a great religious thinker has changed the way we think about God, or creation, or man’s purpose in the universe? I kinda thought I had already done that, only to discover it doesn’t really count. I also mentioned [John Shelby Spong](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong) > [@](#): > > A prominent theme in Spong’s writing is that the popular, literal interpretation of Christian scripture is not sustainable and does not speak honestly to the situation of modern Christian communities, and that a more nuanced approach to scripture, informed by scholarship and compassion, can be consistent with both Christian tradition and a contemporary understanding of the universe If you look at the books he’s written in the last 10 years alone you see a movement to radically change Christianity 1999 - Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers In Exile, 2001 - Here I Stand: My Struggle for a Christianity of Integrity, Love and Equality, 2002 - A New Christianity for a New World: Why Traditional Faith Is Dying and How a New Faith Is Being Born, 2005 - The Sins of Scripture: Exposing the Bible’s Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love, 2007 - Jesus for the Non-Religious, 2009 - Eternal Life: A New Vision: Beyond Religion, Beyond Theism, Beyond Heaven and Hell, ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/106 "2010-06-01T21:56:14Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Dawkins? > > If you define great thinkers as those who have novel ideas and thereby change the way things are generally viewed, then in the forum of religion your great thinkers of late will have been the ones who _break_ from the traditions of organized religion. So Martin Luther (the original) would qualify… Who’s come after him? Joseph Smith? L Ron Hubbard maybe? Who was the first Westerner to survive being an “open” atheist? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/107 "2010-06-01T22:02:07Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Who was the first Westerner to survive being an “open” atheist? If you mean “wasn’t killed”: [Diagoras of Melos](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagoras_of_Melos) (~ 400 BC) might qualify. Somewhat more recently, [Spinoza](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza), maybe? I’m sure there were less well-known atheists around in the time between them. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/108 "2010-06-01T22:10:46Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Abolitionists may have “fanned the flames”, but I maintain my position that it took armies to actually end slavery. I agree but I don’t understand what your point is exactly. So what if it took military force to end slavery? What does that prove? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/109 "2010-06-01T22:12:33Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > If you mean “wasn’t killed”: [Diagoras of Melos](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagoras_of_Melos) (~ 400 BC) might qualify. > > Somewhat more recently, [Spinoza](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza), maybe? I’m sure there were less well-known atheists around in the time between them. To be more specific – who was the first well-known Western person, since the time of the Inquisition, who was publicly known to be an atheist and who wasn’t punished because of it? I would argue that that person has done more to change the public’s views on religion than anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/110 "2010-06-01T22:17:22Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > To be more specific – who was the first well-known Western person, since the time of the Inquisition, who was publicly known to be an atheist and who wasn’t punished because of it? > > I would argue that that person has done more to change the public’s views on religion than anyone else. You’re not likely to find a ‘founder’ of atheism, if that’s what you’re looking for. It has been noted the changes that made atheism more culturally acceptible generally stemmed inadvertantly from science and other things, rather than from atheist leaders ‘taking up the standard’ and ‘pushing the cause’. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/111 "2010-06-01T22:23:35Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You’re not likely to find a ‘founder’ of atheism, if that’s what you’re looking for. It has been noted the changes that made atheism more culturally acceptible generally stemmed inadvertantly from science and other things, rather than from atheist leaders ‘taking up the standard’ and ‘pushing the cause’. Not ‘founder’ so much as ‘survivor’ or ‘thriver’. When people became aware that they could cast off the burdens of religion without retribution from church or king, that was a HUGE change. I would guess it was a larger change than any single reinterpretation of dogma or scripture within the religious community. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/112 "2010-06-01T22:32:10Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Dawkins? > > If you define great thinkers as those who have novel ideas and thereby change the way things are generally viewed, then in the forum of religion your great thinkers of late will have been the ones who _break_ from the traditions of organized religion. So Martin Luther (the original) would qualify… Who’s come after him? Joseph Smith? L Ron Hubbard maybe? Well I mentioned Spong for the west but I’m also fond of the writings of the [significant leaders of the Bahai](http://reference.bahai.org/en/) Although in a real sense it may be just one more religion among many I also see many of it’s teachings as being very progressive and it addresses the very heart of the relevant issues that impede mankinds growth. They stress unity instead of dogma and a real life application of principles that promote religious and cultural tolerance , human rights, peace, caring for the less fortunate. They stress the harmony of science and religion stating that ultimately truth is truth and something cannot be religiously correct and scientifically wrong. They stress education , social and economic development as part of mankinds overall growth. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/113 "2010-06-01T22:39:57Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Who was the first Westerner to survive being an “open” atheist? more importantly , who was the first openly gay black atheist? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/114 "2010-06-01T22:46:28Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Not ‘founder’ so much as ‘survivor’ or ‘thriver’. When people became aware that they could cast off the burdens of religion without retribution from church or king, that was a HUGE change. I would guess it was a larger change than any single reinterpretation of dogma or scripture within the religious community. I think the Book End of Faith and Dawkins have sparked a great dialogue allowing atheism to become a much more socially acceptable and understood alternative to religion as well as giving fundamentalism a smack they needed and deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/115 "2010-06-01T22:50:25Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Not ‘founder’ so much as ‘survivor’ or ‘thriver’. When people became aware that they could cast off the burdens of religion without retribution from church or king, that was a HUGE change. I would guess it was a larger change than any single reinterpretation of dogma or scripture within the religious community. By the time Spinoza came along, “the West” wasn’t a big block with identical influence of “the church”. In the larger cities in the Netherlands, he could pretty much publish what he did without real retribution, but I don’t think he’d have that kind of freedom in say, Spain (or even more rural communities in the Netherlands at that time). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/116 "2010-06-01T23:05:48Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > You couldn’t be more wrong. Science is the method by which we understand the physical world. It is completely uninterested and agnostic about the non-material world on which religion focuses. Science has no interest, because there’s no rational reason to think that the “non-material world” is anything but a fantasy, or even possible. And to the extent religion focuses on that, it’s because science and religion already fought and religion lost. Historically it was the norm for religion to make all sorts of pronouncements about the physical world; being religion it was naturally always wrong. Claims such as yours that religion speaks only of the “non-material world” are just a defensive position, to preserve the remnant of religious claims that science has not yet successfully destroyed. It is also an inaccurate claim since religions still make claims about the real world; that evolution isn’t true or that the world is 6000 years old or that UFOs are piloted by demons or that homosexuality is a choce. And as always the claims of religion are wrong. And typically evil. > [@Skammer](#): > > Saying that science and religion are enemies is like saying science and philosophy are enemies. No science and philosophy can work together just fine. Because philosophy tends to concern itself with matters of opinion, or ways of classifying things, or logic puzzles or hypotheticals; not with making claims about reality that are baseless or flat out wrong and then insisting that everyone pretend they are true. Science in turn can produce new facts and ideas that inspire philosophers, because unlike the religious believers philosophers are not dedicated to denying reality. Science is not the enemy of philosophy because philosophy can adapt to it, acknowledge the facts, and has no particular problem with the concept of ideas being hypotheticals or errors; instead of demanding that everyone pretend that fantasy is real as religion does. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/117 "2010-06-02T01:19:43Z")
The end of the 19th Century. Neitzsche famously made the argument that “God is dead,” meaning precisely what the OP is describing. Great minds, the educated, the intelligentsia, they no longer believed or relied upon God as a reliable source or authority. What did this death mean? he argued. Let me tell you the history of the coming century, so you will know. He then described a fairly uncanny description of the World Wars and turmoil that were to in the 20th century. Neitzsche called it, and is pretty famous for having called it. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/118 "2010-06-02T02:15:12Z")
**Der Trihs** , once again you are attacking a characture of religion that has little or no basis in reality. I don’t know what injuries in your past someone has done to you in the name of religion, but you need to let go of your anger and hatred. My point earlier was that there is inherently no conflict between science and religion; it’s ridiculous to say science has “won.” Science cannot prove nor disprove the existence of God; religous doctrine is not subject to laboratory analysis. As far as “great thinkers” in religion over the last century or so, you could list Karl Barth, Marcus Borg, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, John Paul II, NT Wright, or Shelby Spong – and those are just the Christians and just the ones I came up with in 30 seconds of thought. Your peculiar ideas to the contrary, most religious people have no problem with science. Most believe in evolution, global warming, quantum mechanics, relativity, the big bang, or whatever, and don’t see any conflict with their religous beliefs. But feel free to pretend otherwise if that makes you feel superior. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/119 "2010-06-02T02:42:46Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Your peculiar ideas to the contrary, most religious people have no problem with science. Most believe in evolution, global warming, quantum mechanics, relativity, the big bang, or whatever, and don’t see any conflict with their religous beliefs. But feel free to pretend otherwise if that makes you feel superior. [Not in America they don’t.](http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/darwin-birthday-believe-evolution.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2010, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373/120 "2010-06-02T03:44:10Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > [Not in America they don’t.](http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/darwin-birthday-believe-evolution.aspx) interesting. I noticed how much it changed based on education and also on age. The gneration coming up seems to accept evolution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-religion-jump-the-shark-for-great-thinkers/541373.md?page=7)