# When did self-defense become a criminal offense? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 27, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888 "2003-05-27T23:17:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/21 "2003-05-28T04:16:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Q.E.D. \* > \*\*No? Then explain why a burglar can successfully sue you in some states if you smack him upside the head with a bat while he’s robbing your premises. Justice is supposed to be blind, but it only is when it wants to be. \*\* Civil versus criminal law. And the complete lack of specifics for any actual case or cases means I can’t really respond to this generalized statement. But you can sue nearly anyone for nearly anything in many States. And you may win, since civil cases are not decided by the qualifiers “beyond a reasonable doubt or moral certainty” - what is the expression instead: “preponderance of the evidence”, I think. And it still has _nothing_ to do with my point. I’m quite certain, as you well know, that a civil jury would take into account the character and (admissable) history of any person suing in civil court, and you can bet that it would have some serious influence on their decision. You just can’t un-ring that bell once it’s admitted in open court. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/22 "2003-05-28T04:19:29Z")
tag teamed by noted liberal and conservative. Bad place, eh? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/23 "2003-05-28T05:09:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by black455 \* > \*\*I’ll concede that vigilante was the wrong word. But I’ve gotta wonder at the attitude of those people who are willing to overlook the obvious violations of gun laws in situations like this. I mean, would the OP express the same outrage if the guy were a drug dealer who, in defending himself from being jumped, blasted the attacker with an illegal piece? \*\* I’ve got a problem with the concept of defending _illegal commerce_ with force, be it legal or illegal, yet can see the point you raise. The situation in my OP is outside of that situation-two people are minding their business, doing their jobs, and find themselves at gunpoint. If no crime of robbery had been attempted, then the rest of the matter would be rendered moot. If the illegal weapon were not present, then the families of those employees would likely be arranging for funerals. Admittedly, I am not cognizant of the laws in the City of New York or those of New York State regarding firearms ownership and possession. IANAPO, however my understanding is that in PA, unless the weapon is modified, e.g. sawed-off shotgun, serial number removed, fully automatic machine pistol, it is lawful\* for a business owner to possess a firearm and use it in defense of perceived deadly force. \*unless prohibited under §6105 PA Crimes Code-this section generally refers to persons having been adjudicated guilty of serious offenses such that they may not have access to firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/24 "2003-05-28T05:29:34Z")
I don’t know that I would necessarily overlook the gun law violation, but at the same time I think people who work at businesses like that should be allowed to have a gun with them. These people would likely be dead now if they didn’t have a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/25 "2003-05-28T05:31:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > Well, just glancing over the thread, I see three people doing so– **december** , **bump** , and the OP. Well, the OP was overlooking it in the sense of “not seeing it,” or so it seemed. And **december** was just commenting on the appropriateness of the term “vigilante.” But you’re right about **bump** , so I stand corrected on that score. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/26 "2003-05-28T06:21:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*Well, the OP was overlooking it in the sense of “not seeing it,” or so it seemed. And **december** was just commenting on the appropriateness of the term “vigilante.” But you’re right about **bump** , so I stand corrected on that score. \*\* What have I not seen, Sir? ---
**Author:** ![Reuben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@Reuben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reuben)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/27 "2003-05-28T10:31:49Z")
If that chap’s only getting charged with the gun offence, he can count himself lucky. Here in the UK farmer Tony Martin was sentenced to life for murder, because he shot a burglar. It’s the most farcical, contemptible, travesty of ‘justice’ I have ever seen. Thankfully it was later reduced by the appeals court to an only-slightly-less-insane five years for manslaughter. But the lunacy continues unchecked : in a development just yesterday, Mr Martin lost his chance of appealing for early parole because, and I quote, [“there was a high risk he would reoffend if someone else broke into his home.”](http://www.guardian.co.uk/martin/article/0,2763,952245,00.html) Too right there is, and good luck to him. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/28 "2003-05-28T11:14:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reuben \* > \*\*If that chap’s only getting charged with the gun offence, he can count himself lucky. Here in the UK farmer Tony Martin was sentenced to life for murder, because he shot a burglar. It’s the most farcical, contemptible, travesty of ‘justice’ I have ever seen. Thankfully it was later reduced by the appeals court to an only-slightly-less-insane five years for manslaughter. > > But the lunacy continues unchecked : in a development just yesterday, Mr Martin lost his chance of appealing for early parole because, and I quote, [“there was a high risk he would reoffend if someone else broke into his home.”](http://www.guardian.co.uk/martin/article/0,2763,952245,00.html) > > Too right there is, and good luck to him. \*\* Tony Martin shot these burglars in the back (with an illegally-held pump-action shotgun) as they were trying to make their empty-handed escape. Hardly reasonable force. He was involved in several gun-related incidents previous to this; once he’d shot at a car – this incident led to his licence being revoked. He has shown zero contrition for the death of Fred Barras. Some feel the travesty was the reduction from murder to manslaughter, I have very little sympathy for him. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/29 "2003-05-28T11:43:23Z")
The Martin case is a classic example of _why_ the courts have to take all aspects of a situation into account. Contrary to some people’s belief, it is _not_ illegal in the UK to defend yourself, with proportionate and reasonable force, if you are under attack or threat of attack. Did Tony Martin use proportionate and reasonable force? The court heard the evidence, and said no. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/30 "2003-05-28T12:05:47Z")
I have some sympathy for Martin in that he was driven to despair over thieving toe-rags repeatedly robbing him. He seems to be a bit of a odd character, but he’s due as much security and privacy in his home as anyone else. However, he went on to turn his house into a thief trap and shot dead an unarmed teenager in the back with an unlicensed shotgun. In no way can this be considered self defence or reasonable force. If we are going to permit any householders to take action like this we might as well give up on any notion of a fair and reasoned judicial system and declare every one for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/31 "2003-05-28T12:29:12Z")
An unarmed teenager who’d already been arrested 26 times and convicted 2, 3 times? **Reuben** , thanks for that refreshing look. And now what, the idiot Fearon is suing for pain and suffering from jail? Bollocks!! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/32 "2003-05-28T12:43:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > \*\*An unarmed teenager who’d already been arrested 26 times and convicted 2, 3 times? **Reuben** , thanks for that refreshing look. And now what, the idiot Fearon is suing for pain and suffering from jail? Bollocks!! \*\* What “refreshing look”? Seemed to me to be the same old reactionary crap as spewed by tabloids the world over. ---
**Author:** ![Reuben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@Reuben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reuben)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/33 "2003-05-28T12:45:34Z")
Oh, so what would you (meaning the three dopers above BF) have done in his place? Strolled right up to the murderous villains, who outnumber you and who are (as far as **you** know as you sit there quaking in the dark with your imagination working overtime) probably armed to the teeth and totally desperate, tapped 'em on the shoulder and said it was a fair cop and to come quietly? You’d have got a knife in the guts for your trouble, devil a doubt. The key to it all is what constitutes reasonable force, and I’d say that using a gun (or any other weapon to hand) in such circumstances to be entirely reasonable. I bet you would too, if you were in the position he was. Everyone seems to think that they know better, or would have handled it differently whilst somehow avoiding death or at least serious injury. I can see that it’s easy to think so… we’re in our armchairs, thinking about it quietly and at our leisure. He was scared out of his wits, in the dark, being robbed, and had to make split-second decisions. If Tony Martin had caught and tortured his burglars, then there’d probably be something for him to answer for. As it was, it was a panicky situation in the dark that was entirely brought about by the two criminals themselves. I know the stupid boy was only 16, and if I could call him back to life I would for the sentence on him is too high, but the random chaos that _they_ engineered didn’t work out that way and we are wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong to punish Mr Martin so hard for it. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/34 "2003-05-28T12:48:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*From a standpoint of terminology, since the perp was shot while he was pointing a gun at the employees, this is self-defence, rather than vigilantism. > \*\* It isn’t vigilantiism, but the linked article doesn’t say the perp was shot while pointing a weapon at the employees. The perp _could have_ been shot in the back of the head while trying to flee the store, making the arrest understandable and appropriate. We need more info. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/35 "2003-05-28T13:33:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reuben \* > \*\*Oh, so what would you (meaning the three dopers above BF) have done in his place? Strolled right up to the murderous villains, who outnumber you and who are (as far as **you** know as you sit there quaking in the dark with your imagination working overtime) probably armed to the teeth and totally desperate, tapped 'em on the shoulder and said it was a fair cop and to come quietly? You’d have got a knife in the guts for your trouble, devil a doubt. > > The key to it all is what constitutes reasonable force, and I’d say that using a gun (or any other weapon to hand) in such circumstances to be entirely reasonable. I bet you would too, if you were in the position he was. Everyone seems to think that they know better, or would have handled it differently whilst somehow avoiding death or at least serious injury. I can see that it’s easy to think so… we’re in our armchairs, thinking about it quietly and at our leisure. He was scared out of his wits, in the dark, being robbed, and had to make split-second decisions. > > If Tony Martin had caught and tortured his burglars, then there’d probably be something for him to answer for. As it was, it was a panicky situation in the dark that was entirely brought about by the two criminals themselves. I know the stupid boy was only 16, and if I could call him back to life I would for the sentence on him is too high, but the random chaos that _they_ engineered didn’t work out that way and we are wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong to punish Mr Martin so hard for it. \*\* What I wouldn’t have done was shot the poor fucker in the back as he was running away. I suspect that whatever Tony Martin said in his defence he wasn’t the sort to “quake in the dark”, “scared out of his wits”. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/36 "2003-05-28T13:42:44Z")
The _court_ heard the evidence in the Martin case - the _evidence_, not a selection from the evidence orchestrated to a tune of tabloid rabble-rousing - and decided that, _in this case_, the homeowner exceeded the definition of “reasonable force”, and punished him accordingly. It’s astonishing how many problems I utterly fail to have with this. In other cases, presented with other facts, courts have decided differently. Heck, in other cases, the case for self-defence has been sufficiently obvious that the CPS never pressed the case … it is a mistake, IMO, to look at the Tony Martin case and conclude from this that the English householder has no right of self-defence in law. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/37 "2003-05-28T13:55:11Z")
The old saw quoted daily by police officers is now appropriate for the populace as well: “Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.” ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/38 "2003-05-28T14:27:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BF \* > **An unarmed teenager who’d already been arrested 26 times and convicted 2, 3 times?** Oh, sorry didn’t know that. In the light of this, obviously, he deserved to die. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reuben \* > **He was scared out of his wits, in the dark, being robbed, and had to make split-second decisions.** A split-second nothing. He had arranged his house as a trap. He had obtained and kept an unlicensed gun he knew he was expressly forbidden to have. It was also extremely unlikely the intruders would be armed. He was the one in control of the situation and the people in most danger in that house were the burglars. ---
**Author:** ![Reuben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@Reuben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reuben)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/39 "2003-05-28T15:29:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Futile Gesture \* > **He had arranged his house as a trap.** How the fuck do you “arrange a house as a trap”? All I’ve heard in this line is that he removed a couple of stairs from his staircase so a burglar would trip and he would so be more likely to know he was being burgled. The way you say it you’d think he’d dug a covered pit in his hallway, with some poisoned spikes at the bottom for good measure. Ridiculous. And so bloody what if he actually had? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888/40 "2003-05-28T15:38:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Futile Gesture \* > \*\* He had arranged his house as a trap. He had obtained and kept an unlicensed gun he knew he was expressly forbidden to have. It was also extremely unlikely the intruders would be armed. He was the one in control of the situation and the people in most danger in that house were the burglars. \*\* But, had he posted a sign saying, **PLEASE BURGLE THIS HOUSE** Granting that Martin was in control in many respects, the burglar was in control of his decision to rob Martin in the first place. Not that that justifies killing him… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-self-defense-become-a-criminal-offense/177888.md?page=3)