When did self-defense become a criminal offense?

[Steve_Wright]

Actually, burglary, in English law, is considered a violent felony, and it’s by no means impossible to make a case for justifiable homicide, if you kill a burglar in the process of defending your home from him/her.

It is not, however, possible to make a case for justifiable homicide, if you successfully defend your home from burglars, and then shoot one of them in the back while he’s running away.

Personally, I feel that burglars are a blight on society, and the law should take stern measures to deal with them. However, I feel pretty much the same way about paranoid nutters with unlicensed shotguns. So there we are then.

[byter]

*Originally posted by BF *
An unarmed teenager who’d already been arrested 26 times and convicted 2, 3 times?

*Originally posted by Futile Gesture *
Oh, sorry didn’t know that. In the light of this, obviously, he deserved to die. :rolleyes:

I don’t think the point was that he deserved to die. However the case could be made that he was probably going to die young.

[bump]

*Originally posted by Miller *
**Well, the OP was overlooking it in the sense of “not seeing it,” or so it seemed. And december was just commenting on the appropriateness of the term “vigilante.” But you’re right about bump, so I stand corrected on that score. **

I wasn’t so much overlooking it and saying “Yay! Another jerk shot!”. We don’t know from the news article that ** danceswithcats ** posted what exactly the employees involved in the shooting were charged with. ** danceswithcats ** then goes on to say (paraphrased) that it’s awful that these guys get robbed at gunpoint, respond with similar force, and they’re the ones in trouble.

What I was saying is that the gun licensing seems to be the gist of the OP- would these guys have even been taken in had the gun been licensed?

In some states, it wouldn’t have been a big deal at all- definitely not enough to arrest the employees for.

[pravnik]

Guys, it ain’t the licensing. It’s the homicide. Illegal possession of a firearm is generally a misdemeanor, but homicide is a big deal in every state in the union. Killing somebody for whatever reason is serious business. It gets no serious-er.

Legally, self-defense is a justification raised in a criminal proceeding to assault or homicide, not a bar to being prosecuted in the first place. There’s a possibility that if the facts so clearly show self-defense a grand jury won’t even indict them, or that a prosecutor will choose to drop the charges after investigating them more fully, but seeing as the person was protecting a business rather than a home and property rather than his life (maybe), there’s a strong possibility that the authorities will prefer to have a jury determine whether the shooting was self defense or not.

[catsix]

Or in the case of the man in Washington County, Pennsylvania who beat to death an intruder in his home, an intruder who crashed through his living room window and was choking this man’s 7 year-old son, the DA (John Pettit) shows up at the scene and decides then and there not to even file charges based on the statements of those present and what information the police gathered.

That resident, incidentally, had firearms in his home and told police he chose a baseball bat out of fear that he’d accidentally shoot his son while trying to stop the attacker.

[John_Harrison]

I thought this story would apply to this discussion:

A disabled man who used CS spray to fight off a robber is now facing the threat of legal action.

Wheelchair-bound Nicholas Ashworth, aged 22, sprayed his alleged attacker in the face with the CS spray.

He then climbed out of his wheelchair and limped across the road as the man screamed in pain. A passing police patrol spotted him in distress and stopped at the scene. Officers then arrested both men.

Today after being released on police bail pending further inquiries – which could result in police prosecution – Mr Ashworth defended his use of the CS spray. He said he bought it to protect himself after being attacked in Bridgeman Street three weeks ago. On that occasion his attacker hit him in the face before pinning him back in his chair. The man then rifled through his pockets and stole £100.

I guess self-defense isn’t illegal in the UK - you just can’t actually use a tool for said defense. How quaint. :rolleyes: :mad:

Perhaps some strong language would suffice?

[China_Guy]

John Harrison, correct me if I’m wrong, but seems like the police were following their standard procedure and arrested both men. No note of witnesses. Mr. ashworth was released pending further inquiries. Again, standard procedure. Doesn’t mention what treatment the other person was getting.

Doesn’t it just seem possible that the police here are following bureaucratic procedures and that it is unlikely that Mr Ashworth will be subject to police prosecution – although that is a possibility?

[John_Harrison]

*Originally posted by China Guy *
**Doesn’t it just seem possible that the police here are following bureaucratic procedures and that it is unlikely that Mr Ashworth will be subject to police prosecution – although that is a possibility? **

Yes, I agree it is a possibility. It is also a distinct possibility that he will be prosecuted for having illegal CS/pepper spray. I’m still trying to find some information that follows up on the situation, however it doesn’t change the fact that that in the UK:

CS/Pepper Spray is illegal
Tasers are illegal
Handguns are illegal
Knives are illegal
etc ad nauseum… (I can understand some of these, but fucking pepper spray?!?)

…but self-defense is legal. How this is accomplished by a disabled man against an attacker with a knife I have no idea.

[danceswithcats]

By shouting BOO! in a strong, but not overly threatening tone, I suspect.

Stops 'em every time. :rolleyes:

[The_Great_Unwashed]

*Originally posted by John Harrison *
**Yes, I agree it is a possibility. It is also a distinct possibility that he will be prosecuted for having illegal CS/pepper spray. I’m still trying to find some information that follows up on the situation, however it doesn’t change the fact that that in the UK:

CS/Pepper Spray is illegal
Tasers are illegal
Handguns are illegal
Knives are illegal
etc ad nauseum… (I can understand some of these, but fucking pepper spray?!?)

…but self-defense is legal. How this is accomplished by a disabled man against an attacker with a knife I have no idea. **

Er,

[list=a]
[li]where did it say “attacker with a knife” in your story?[/li][li]“ad nauseum”? You mean the list goes on? … grenade launchers?.. cluster-bombs? Fucking what? – What else besides pepper-spray do you think UK citizens should be allowed to carry?[/li][li]is it possible that pepper-spray could be used as an aggressive tool, say, by a mugger?[/li][li]I can’t find a link to this story, it is too short on details to know if it supports any “point” you might have, you got one? Fuck! it’s not even concluded – if the alleged victim gets nothing but a slap on the wrist for his illegal possession of pepper-spray will that support your case?[/li][li]anyone got any comparitive statistics for gun deaths between the US and the UK, it might be telling?[/li][li]how many of these gun-deaths are rightful self-defence, and how many are the innoncent victims of crime?[/li][/list=a]

[Una_Persson]

Is it customary in the UK to arrest the victims of crime?

I’m not being sarcastic, I want to know. Is it SOP to arrest crime victims? Is this codified in law?

Having been a victim of violent attacks, I can assure you that in the US, it is NOT what is done. I mean, when the police come on a scene, if it’s not clear who’s done what, then both people will commonly be arrested, true.

But a wheelchair-bound man, “limping across the road”, and given the description…sounds kinda cut and dried to me who did what to who. So either this is a serious injustice, or there is more to the story than the brief bit reported.

Unwashed, you may want to visit the Search engine here and wade through the 456,782 threads on gun control before you start asking about comparitive deaths. Make sure you settle in a comfy chair and get a thermos of tea - it’ll be a read.

[John_Harrison]

:smack: Crap. Sorry about not posting the link. Here you go.

**Mr Ashworth said the attacker held a knife at his throat and threatened to stab him. **

is it possible that pepper-spray could be used as an aggressive tool, say, by a mugger?

Yes, but I don’t see that as a good reason to make it illegal for self defense.

I can’t find a link to this story, it is too short on details to know if it supports any “point” you might have, you got one? Fuck! it’s not even concluded – if the alleged victim gets nothing but a slap on the wrist for his illegal possession of pepper-spray will that support your case?

My point is that I have trouble understanding why self defense is frowned upon so much across the pond. Not even allowing the disabled access to defensive spray is fucking ridiculous. Who cares about the severity of the penalty? That doesn’t change the fact that it is still illegal.

anyone got any comparitive statistics for gun deaths between the US and the UK, it might be telling?

Well, allowing people to carry firearms for self defense in the US has worked out quite well, but I don’t think it would work in the UK. The societal differences are too great. I apologize for mentioning it.

[Typo_Negative]

*Originally posted by Anthracite *
**Is it customary in the UK to arrest the victims of crime?

I’m not being sarcastic, I want to know. Is it SOP to arrest crime victims? Is this codified in law? **

It is sometimes not immediately clear who did what to whom or why. Barring a 3rd party witnessing the incident, taking both parties into custody till such things can be determined seems prudent.

[GuanoLad]

*Originally posted by Anthracite *
Is it customary in the UK to arrest the victims of crime?

If the victim also committed an offence, then yes. In this case, he knowingly possessed and used an illegal substance - which as a police officer they have to accept at face value until further investigation unearths the facts. A police officer isn’t there to cast judegement, he only sees laws being broken by both parties, and his job is to take them downtown.

[The_Great_Unwashed]

*Originally posted by Anthracite *
**Is it customary in the UK to arrest the victims of crime?

<snip>

But a wheelchair-bound man, “limping across the road”, and given the description…sounds kinda cut and dried to me who did what to who. So either this is a serious injustice, or there is more to the story than the brief bit reported.

Unwashed, you may want to visit the Search engine here and wade through the 456,782 threads on gun control before you start asking about comparitive deaths. Make sure you settle in a comfy chair and get a thermos of tea - it’ll be a read. **

No, it is not customary to arrest the “victims of crime”. And this is not the case here: Ashworth admitted that he used an illegally held CS spray; that would be the offence he was arrested for, not for being a “victim of crime”, simple, really.

As it stands, all we know is that Ashworth alleges that he was threatened at knife point and that he used that spray to defend himself: notice he was not arrested for defending himself:

A police spokesman said that they were investigating the illegal use and possession of CS spray. He also revealed that a man was on police bail pending further inquiries into the attempted robbery of Mr Ashworth.

Where’s the travesty here? Maybe the DPP will prsosecute, maybe not, do you not think the police should persue such infractions of the law? There may well be “more to this story” – there’s no case to answer for yet.

Wade through the threads on gun control? I don’t think there’s a need – mine was a rhetorical question – there are many more gun deaths in the US than in the UK: 10.58 people are killed each year per 100,000 population in the US compared with 0.69 per 100,000 in the UK, are these all justifiable, “self-defence” homicides?

[The_Great_Unwashed]

*Originally posted by John Harrison ***
<snip>
Yes, but I don’t see that as a good reason to make it illegal for self defense. **

The thing is, you see, if it’s legal to possess it, is it more likely to be used as an aid to self-defence or as an aggressive tool? And what would you call a good reason? What levels of firearms control do you advocate?

**My point is that I have trouble understanding why self defense is frowned upon so much across the pond. **

Yes, you are having difficulties, self-defence is not in the least bit frowned upon here --disproportionate force (see Tony Martin’s case), and illegal possession (this case), are frowned upon. Simple, really.

Not even allowing the disabled access to defensive spray is fucking ridiculous. Who cares about the severity of the penalty? That doesn’t change the fact that it is still illegal.

There should be different laws for disabled people? What about wimpy guys? Old people? Women?

In the US a disproportionate number of firearm deaths fall upon young, poor black people – shouldn’t we be arming them for there own self-defence?

Most of all, your complaint that “it is still illegal” completely misses the point, it is in the sentencing that the law gets to apply its wisdom precisely because it is impossible to codify every mode of human behaviour and every circumstance – if the facts are as we understand them I would be surprised if Ashworth were to get more than a police caution – that’s a fucking warning, hardly a striking example of a bizarre miscarriage or criminalisation of the victim.

**Well, allowing people to carry firearms for self defense in the US has worked out quite well, but I don’t think it would work in the UK. The societal differences are too great. I apologize for mentioning it. **

Has is now? By what measure? What societal differences? I’ve lived in the US (albeit for only a little over a year), I can’t see what differences you imagine.

[Little_Plastic_Ninja]

Oh yes, America the Bloody, where everyone and their two-year-old daughter is packing heat. :rolleyes:

Or at least Texas the Violent, where this is…er, well, it’s closer to true in Texas.

In my home of Texas, it is not illegal to use whatever force you deem necessary to keep people from trespassing on your property. For anyone who decries this, I would ask you this: have you ever been the victim of a break-in? In the neighborhood I live in (for the next few weeks before I move at last, praise X from whom all blessings flow), I have been the subject of a burglary THREE times – once to the house and the car, once to the car itself, and once to the shed in the back to steal our lawn mower. The break-in to the house happened while people were home and sleeping.

Have you ever woken up at three or four in the morning to the sound of the back door shutting…when you know no one else is awake or out of the house? When you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a stranger in your home? It doesn’t take an armed intruder to scare seven kinds of hell out of me…and this will naturally be at least partly because I’m a female in this part of town. Now, none of these victims mentioned yet have been women, but anyone can be defenseless. I could have grabbed a kitchen knife (wonder of wonders, we have no guns in my house, not among the six of us) and defended myself, but what if the guy had a gun?

In the UK, IIRC, it is very, very, very, very hard for even criminals to get guns. This is good.

It is not impossible. This is bad. What this means is that, even if it is RARE that a criminal will assault you with a weapon you cannot defend yourself against, it is still POSSIBLE.

If you have never had anything stolen from your home, you have no idea what kind of terror runs through you at the idea of this stranger. I don’t care if the stranger’s a five-foot-tall Chicana with a limp or a seven-foot giant. Anyone can be armed, anyone can be a threat, and if they’ve gone the step to breaking into a house, then they are beyond my sympathy…and I will assume they are armed.

Better, as someone else pointed out, to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

I hate guns. I hate the fact that they exist, and I refuse to touch the wretched things. If there wasn’t a gun left in the world, nor any way to make more, I’d sleep a lot more soundly. I’m not a gun nut, but I will not assume they are not a threat just because I HOPE they aren’t.

But now that I’ve defended the guy who made his house into a death trap, I’d like to say this: if I were him, I’d have called the police. If I couldn’t call the police, I wouldn’t have had a loaded unlicensed shotgun in the house. I’d be happy to employ a very realistic replica, however, to chase them out with.

Under the sweating, screaming, begging hope that they don’t have so much as a pellet gun on them.

[John_Harrison]

*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed *
The thing is, you see, if it’s legal to possess it, is it more likely to be used as an aid to self-defence or as an aggressive tool? And what would you call a good reason? What levels of firearms control do you advocate?

Firearms control? My response you quoted was about cs/pepper spray. Don’t change the subject.

Yes, you are having difficulties, self-defence is not in the least bit frowned upon here --disproportionate force (see Tony Martin’s case), and illegal possession (this case), are frowned upon. Simple, really.

I never mentioned the Tony Martin case, since I agree that he was very wrong. Changing the subject to firearms yet again.

There should be different laws for disabled people? What about wimpy guys? Old people? Women?

No. In the UK I can understand not allowing firearms. I can’t understand not allowing pepper spray.

In the US a disproportionate number of firearm deaths fall upon young, poor black people – shouldn’t we be arming them for there own self-defence?

Yes, I am. I support CCW laws in the US.

Most of all, your complaint that “it is still illegal” completely misses the point, it is in the sentencing that the law gets to apply its wisdom precisely because it is impossible to codify every mode of human behaviour and every circumstance – if the facts are as we understand them I would be surprised if Ashworth were to get more than a police caution – that’s a fucking warning, hardly a striking example of a bizarre miscarriage or criminalisation of the victim.

Has is now? By what measure? What societal differences? I’ve lived in the US (albeit for only a little over a year), I can’t see what differences you imagine.

How can I miss my own point? My point is that I think it is fucking stupid to make it illegal to use pepper spray for self defense. It is irrelevant if the police decide to not prosecute him for the violation.

Wade through the threads on gun control? I don’t think there’s a need – mine was a rhetorical question – there are many more gun deaths in the US than in the UK: 10.58 people are killed each year per 100,000 population in the US compared with 0.69 per 100,000 in the UK, are these all justifiable, “self-defence” homicides?

Well, in the majority of defensive gun use the gun isn’t fired, so I don’t think that counting bodies is the way to judge the effectiveness of firearms for self defense.

[The_Great_Unwashed]

John Harrison, have I offended you somehow? You said “Yes, but I don’t see that as a good reason to make it (CS-spray) illegal for self defense”, I said, “what would you call a good reason”, and then, because there’s a continuum from CS-spray (for instance) through to firearms proper (BTW, I believe in the UK the laws that forbid CS-gas are extensions of our firearms laws – they’re kind of synonymous), I wondered where your “no good reason” type thinking takes you.

Your blunt and uncalled-for chastisement “Don’t change the subject” kind of stunned me.

But when you said “I never mentioned the Tony Martin case”, I was gobsmacked – is there any reading of my post that even comes close to suggesting that I thought you did!

It’s about this time that I begin to suspect that you’re not posting in good faith. We are informed that you support the CCW-laws --that’s strange, it answers my question “What levels of firearms control do you advocate?” but when I asked it you dismissed it as a change of subject.

You continue in the same bizarre vein: “How can I miss my own point?” was a truly substantial non-sequitur, well done.

But talking of points, is there one? You think that pepper-spray should be legal in the UK, it isn’t, therefore what?

[John_Harrison]

My apologies. :o I’ll attempt to be more clear this time.

You said “Yes, but I don’t see that as a good reason to make it (CS-spray) illegal for self defense”, I said, “what would you call a good reason”, and then, because there’s a continuum from CS-spray (for instance) through to firearms proper (BTW, I believe in the UK the laws that forbid CS-gas are extensions of our firearms laws – they’re kind of synonymous), I wondered where your “no good reason” type thinking takes you.

I didn’t realize that there was a continuum to firearms from CS-spray, and I don’t believe that non-lethal aerosol sprays are synonymous with firearms. IMO the benefits of allowing CS/pepper spray for defense are worth the chances that they can be used for offensive purposes. We may have to agree to disagree here. There seems to be a prevailing view of defending yourself as poor form in general in the UK, and many of us here have trouble understanding this. I’ve seen many comments from Brits lately that amount to “the law is the law”, which is a cop out if I’ve ever heard one.

Your blunt and uncalled-for chastisement “Don’t change the subject” kind of stunned me.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were on about.

But when you said “I never mentioned the Tony Martin case”, I was gobsmacked – is there any reading of my post that even comes close to suggesting that I thought you did!

It’s about this time that I begin to suspect that you’re not posting in good faith. We are informed that you support the CCW-laws --that’s strange, it answers my question “What levels of firearms control do you advocate?” but when I asked it you dismissed it as a change of subject.

Ok, I’ll give you the short and sweet of my firearms control:

You can purchase a firearm if you satisfy the following (satisfied by NICS)-
Over 18
Not a violent felon
Never been committed to a mental institution

National CCW similar to drivers license

That’s it. Of course this would require the repeal of lots of gun control laws. Darn.