# When did something being high cost or inconvenient translate into entitlement? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2024, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802 "2024-05-20T12:23:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/61 "2024-05-20T18:45:00Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > > That’s my question for those who don’t think piracy is theft: is “theft of services” theft? > > You mean is downloading a copy of a song different than having a hairdresser spend 30 minutes cutting your hair without getting paid? Yes, it’s different. One of them is theft, the other is copyright infringement. I can see it both ways. On the one hand, both the person spending 30 minutes cutting your hair, and the people spending however long recording a song or writing a book or creating a video game, are doing so under the assumption that those benefitting from their efforts will be paying them. In either case, taking the benefit without giving the payment is “stealing” the service. But there are differences: the hairdresser made an arrangement beforehand with the person benefitting from their services, so if they don’t pay, that’s breaking an explicit agreement. And the hairdresser spent that 30 minutes on something that benefitted one specific customer, rather than a large number of customers, a few of whom could stiff them and they’d still get compensation from the others. > [@bump](#): > > But lots of people on Reddit and the people in the article are basically implying that there’s a right to something, even when it’s for something as frivolous as a toll road or a video game, and that if you can’t pay/can’t get it normally, then you’re entitled to use it without paying. I think you’re right that people don’t have a right or entitlement to receive something for free, especially if that something is easy to do without, just because they can’t afford to pay for it (and “can’t afford” is relative). But if you look at it, not from the standpoint of rights and entitlements, but from the utilitarian standpoint of benefit vs. harm done, their point of view looks a bit more reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/62 "2024-05-20T20:34:04Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > But long distance highways, buses, trains, and airplanes, those should have a fee even if they’re subsidized. Otherwise they just get overused. You want a fee for long distance train travel, lest people use it too much, but propose free local public transportation! Why wouldn’t people overuse that? It seems you just don’t feel people should travel long distances, because I assure you, no one is currently overusing Amtrak. And freight trains have not been replaced by trucks. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/63 "2024-05-20T21:10:05Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#): > > The ones who complain about taxes being too high and the roads being congested, and who think they have some god-given right to live 50 miles away from work are entitled. Sometimes the nearest place with anything to rent that they can afford on what they’re being paid is 50 miles away, these days. Sometimes that’s where Granddad lives and he can and is willing to watch the kids, making it possible for Dad and or Mom to go to work. And/or he’s got room in his house that he’s willing to share, see above. People are in a whole lot of different situations. Snarling at them when you don’t know their situation is often a bad idea. Especially when it’s about finances. > [@jjakucyk](#): > > Does that make the statement incorrect? Railroads still pay property taxes on their right-of-way and track, whereas there’s no such tax on roads, quite the opposite. Railroads are generally subsidized also. A society that wants people to be able to get around generally has to subsidize transport. And our society is not one that works fine if everybody just stays home. > [@jjakucyk](#): > > Free local streets/sidewalks/bike paths, free local buses, free streetcars/trams, great, I can even see an argument for free subway/metro up to a point. But long distance highways, buses, trains, and airplanes, those should have a fee even if they’re subsidized. Otherwise they just get overused. The world needs LESS driving, flying, and wasteful lifestyles, and yet we’re just blithely walking into climate disaster and acting surprised about it. That’s a point. But a whole lot more needs to be changed than just charging people to use the roads; and changing that thing without changing the others is going to screw over a lot of people. And the ones getting screwed over won’t be the ones who are flying around for the fun of it. They’ll keep right on doing that. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/64 "2024-05-20T21:20:47Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Taking the argument to its logical conclusion, does this mean that I should be able to help myself to smoked salmon and filet steak from the supermarket because it’s too expensive? No, but in general humans should have a right to not be hungry. Especially in America. > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The government built the toll roads. The government decided to make them toll roads as part of its overall budget policy. If the government made those tolls onerous, it’s fair to question why, Because Texas is run by poor people hating MAGAs. > [@griffin1977](#): > > Could you explain how it is? I’m not arguing here it’s morally correct or we are all entitled to all media for free, just that whatever piracy is, is absolutely not stealing. Nothing is taken, Yes, the income for the creators who made the product is stolen. > [@griffin1977](#): > > Except the act of pirating a piece deprives no one of anything. Suppose I just _poof_ pirated copy of every Hollywood movie of the last 50 years. Right now as I was typing this. They are sitting here on my hard drive, I can run _ls_ and see them all there. What was deprived by that act? The Artist that would have made money when you bought them. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/65 "2024-05-20T21:22:16Z")
I’m dense, so I’m really not understanding the arguments that because a person/corporation doesn’t _know_ they’ve been stolen from that it’s not theft. Likewise, the idea that someone wouldn’t have given them money for a game/book if they couldn’t pirate it? Well, duh, most thieves wouldn’t voluntarily pay for the items they chose to steal. Is there a definition of theft that is not some version of taking something of value without permission or payment? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/66 "2024-05-20T21:25:21Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > I’m dense, so I’m really not understanding the arguments that because a person/corporation doesn’t _know_ they’ve been stolen from that it’s not theft. You are not dense- it _is_ theft. Let us say you have a stash of cash, but you are not sure how much is there- a few hundred $- and someone takes a couple 20’s secretly- still stealing. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/67 "2024-05-20T21:26:22Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > Is there a definition of theft that is not some version of taking something of value without permission or payment? Not that I know of. The argument @griffin1977 amd others seem to be making, if I understand correctly, is that pirating doesn’t take something of value. I don’t agree with that, but it does seem to be what the counter argument is. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/68 "2024-05-20T21:29:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Artist that would have made money when you bought them How are they deprived of anything? Does their bank magically detect when those bits are downloaded on a machine on the other side of the planet and automatically charged 10 bucks? If I download it a million times are they instantly charged 10 million bucks and bankrupted? Like can the rights holders detect tell whether I’m just talking about downloading their movie for the sake of argument and not actually downloading it? How do they tell that exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/69 "2024-05-20T21:30:32Z")
So, if IP is desirable enough to steal, it sure seems to me that means it intrinsically has value. People don’t pirate things with no value? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/70 "2024-05-20T21:31:25Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > How are they deprived of anything? Let say you have a job- and everyone but you gets a annual raise (and your lack has not reason)- what are “deprived of”? The extra money you should have, ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/71 "2024-05-20T21:31:28Z")
Why do they have to be able to tell for it to be theft? ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/72 "2024-05-20T21:34:08Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > So, if IP is desirable enough to steal, it sure seems to me that means it intrinsically has value. People don’t pirate things with no value? I’m not saying I agree with that argument, but reading this, > [@griffin1977](#): > > How are they deprived of anything? Does their bank magically detect when those bits are downloaded on a machine on the other side of the planet and automatically charged 10 bucks? If I download it a million times are they instantly charged 10 million bucks and bankrupted? > > Like can the rights holders detect tell whether I’m just talking about downloading their movie for the sake of argument and not actually downloading it? How do they tell that exactly? seems to be what the argument is. In fact I agree with you, it is theft. I’m just not sure exactly how to define the specific details of **why** it’s theft using the English language. But that’s a shortfall on my part, a lack of sufficient understanding of legalese to define exactly why it’s theft. It doesn’t mean I accept the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/73 "2024-05-20T21:37:14Z")
I would say that aside from wanks like downloading a million times, you are downloading it because you _want_ it. Therefore, it has value to you. Therefore you should pay something for it. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/74 "2024-05-20T21:37:43Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > Why do they have to be able to tell for it to be theft? There has to be some actual measurable thing taken or deprived of for it to be theft. Theft as other posters have pointed out of taking something of value without permission, if nothing is taken it’s not theft. Again you might as well say “wearing blue socks is theft” you can say that all you want, but unless you can point at a way wearing blue socks takes something of value from you, it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/75 "2024-05-20T21:40:20Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > Therefore, it has value to you. Therefore you should pay something for it And how does that make it theft? Saying “you shouldn’t download things without permission” is completely different to saying “downloading something without permission is theft” That’s what I have a problem with. The media companies bombarded us (and our elected representatives) with this idea that unauthorized copying is theft when it absolutely 100% is not. And now people just repeat the lie ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/76 "2024-05-20T21:41:54Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > There has to be some actual measurable thing taken or deprived of for it to be theft. Theft as other posters have pointed out of taking something of value without permission, if nothing is taken it’s not theft. Something has been taken–a digital file. You could print out the binary code if you so chose. That digital file was probably as secure as a physical book until someone hacked it, another crime. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/77 "2024-05-20T21:43:38Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > There has to be some actual measurable thing taken or deprived of for it to be theft. Theft as other posters have pointed out of taking something of value without permission, if nothing is taken it’s not theft. > > Again you might as well say “wearing blue socks is theft” you can say that all you want, but unless you can point at a way wearing blue socks takes something of value from you, it’s not. As I think about it, I believe I can pin down what the thing of value that is taken is. It’s not the actual code for the latest Taylor Swift song, or the most recent Final Fantasy game, or the complete Game of Thrones. What’s being taken without compensation is the effort put in to produce those works. Even if it’s just a cent or two for an individual copy, Taylor Swift, Nobuo Uematsu, George R.R. Martin, and so on are deprived of their just compensation for the labor they put in to create those works. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/78 "2024-05-20T21:45:18Z")
I wish the pro-piracy people would just be honest about and say they want to have something without paying for it. I would respect it a lot more. I wouldn’t agree with it any more than I do now, but I would respect it a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/79 "2024-05-20T21:45:58Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > That’s what I have a problem with. The media companies bombarded us (and our elected representatives) with this idea that unauthorized copying is theft when it absolutely 100% is not. And now people just repeat the lie So copying (physically) a copyrighted work and distributing it is ok? I don’t think you’ll find much agreement? I’m really not understanding why unauthorized copying of something that is expressly protected is ok. If I reverse engineer the formula of WD40 and then sell it **as** WD40 I’m good? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/80 "2024-05-20T21:50:03Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > I wish the pro-piracy people would just be honest about and say they want to have something without paying for it. I would respect it a lot more. I wouldn’t agree with it any more than I do now, but I would respect it a lot more. Yep- we wanna steal but you can’t call us thieves! Thats unfair! 🙄 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802.md?page=5)