# When did something being high cost or inconvenient translate into entitlement? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2024, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802 "2024-05-20T12:23:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/161 "2024-05-22T16:45:23Z")
> [@bump](#): > > this isn’t any different than anything else where the poor have it worse than others. This isn’t a debate over whether toll roads are good or bad. It’s about the entitlement aspect. > > But that doesn’t entitle them to use something they can’t pay for. They’re not owed the use of toll roads because they’re merely faster How about because they’re a government service? Because, at least in the modern USA, they are. And you appear to be saying ‘sure it sucks to be poor and that’s just fine, poor people should have lives which suck’. Is that what you mean? I don’t think the solution to this is to have poor people just not pay tolls – that’s not a practical thing from poor peoples’ point of view either, as it’s likely to result in having their car registrations revoked which will screw them over even further; though I can see why somebody faced with the choice of having their electric cut off this month or their car registration cut off some months from now might well choose to pay the electric bill and hope they’ll be able to pay the toll before that happens. But I don’t think the solution to it is to just say ‘how dare they feel entitled to use the public roads!’ > [@bump](#): > > Case in point- I-635 here in Dallas has a two-tiered setup. Lower lanes are tolled, and upper lanes are free- there are about 2x the number of free lanes as tolled ones. Both sets follow the exact same route. I’ve never seen or heard of any such setup. What’s the difference between the two, if they’re both !-635 and following the exact same route? What is more “convenient” about the tolled lanes? I’m talking about taking the NYS thruway or following a network of two lane roads that at frequent intervals become 30MPH or less speed limit with traffic lights as they pass through villages; often with added detours, construction, school buses stopping traffic, etc. Or, in the case of some cities, the only practical bridge routes to get there. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/162 "2024-05-22T17:06:34Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > ’ve never seen or heard of any such setup. What’s the difference between the two, if they’re both !-635 and following the exact same route? What is more “convenient” about the tolled lanes? I believe the convenience of that set-up is that fewer people are willing to pay the toll and therefore those lanes are less crowded. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/163 "2024-05-22T17:23:56Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Yes, it sucks to be poor. I get that. But this isn’t any different than anything else where the poor have it worse than others. Nope. Except that this particular reminder of how much being poor sucks is a government project intended to benefit the public. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/164 "2024-05-22T18:16:47Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Now let’s say one of your songs gets pirated 10000 times. That’s 10000 song fees you didn’t make. Are you going to be cool with that? Or are you going to feel like that guy deprived you of money you’d otherwise have had? Maybe it’s semantics to call that stealing or not, but it’s definitely taking money from you that you’d otherwise have potentially made. It’s no different in that regard than if someone steals 10,000 copies of your CD single and hands them out for free. How many times have I been a victim of theft and what have I been taken from me in the following scenarios: -My digital release is pirated (downloaded without payment) 10000 times. -My digital release is pirated 10000 times, but from the same person. -My digital release is pirated once, and the pirater makes 9999 copies of the file, and distributes those copies to people who want to listen. -My digital release is pirated once, and the pirater makes 9999 copies, puts those copies onto a hard drive and then smashes the drive. -My digital release is downloaded legally by a gifted musician who is able to record their own identical copy and they distribute that to 10000 people. -10000 physical CDs are stolen from me and no one ever listens to them. -10000 physical CDs are stolen from me by 10000 fans who listen to the music. All of these are immoral, all are likely illegal (or should be), but talking about them all as if they are all just “stealing” leads to an inability to discuss and evaluate what is happening in each scenario, what is undesirable behavior and why. As @Cheesesteak says: > [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Copyright violations aren’t wrong for the same reason that physical theft is wrong. And, framing it all as “theft” promotes a specific response that serves the interests of some, but may or may not be useful for us as a society. And all of this is made-up. Intellectual property isn’t a natural right, it’s a concept put in place to promote societal growth in certain ways. It is all open for debate at any time. Calling it all “theft” encourages us to use old patterns that are more and more outliving their usefulness. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/165 "2024-05-22T18:28:13Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > All of these are immoral, all are likely illegal (or should be), but talking about them all as if they are all just “stealing” leads to an inability to discuss and evaluate what is happening in each scenario, what is undesirable behavior and why. Depends on why you’re talking about them. If you’re codifying laws then maybe it’s worth debating what the definition of theft is for physical vs immaterial things. If discussing morality, then a lot of the word-by-word legalism loses its value. When discussing entitlement and why someone is supposedly justified to play Street Fighter V for free because they’re mad about the DLC, trying to carefully parse the meaning of “steal” to acrobatically avoid any connection to digital products just comes across as pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/166 "2024-05-22T18:45:56Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Depends on why you’re talking about them. If you’re codifying laws then maybe it’s worth debating what the definition of theft is for physical vs immaterial things. If discussing morality, then a lot of the word-by-word legalism loses its value. Perhaps. Though if you (the general you) can’t articulate a moral path in a straightforward way, then maybe pedantry is an opportunity to introduce clarity and explore intent. And I admit to being disengaged from the “I’m not touching you la la la” game-playing that uses “it’s not stealing” as a justification for bad behavior. I tried to be explicit (as have many in this thread) that “it’s not theft” is not an argument that the behavior is moral. Maybe this discussion feels poisoned by that attitude and I failed to pick up on it? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/167 "2024-05-22T18:53:21Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > I believe the convenience of that set-up is that fewer people are willing to pay the toll and therefore those lanes are less crowded. OK. If they’re less crowded, but the free lanes aren’t jammed, I can see that being reasonable. But if the free lanes are frequently jammed to the point of gridlock, or to crawling along at 10MPH on what’s supposed to be a 65MPH highway, I don’t think much of it. And in any case that’s not what’s going on with most toll roads. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/168 "2024-05-22T19:42:43Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > And, framing it all as “theft” promotes a specific response that serves the interests of some, but may or may not be useful for us as a society. And all of this is made-up. Intellectual property isn’t a natural right, it’s a concept put in place to promote societal growth in certain ways. It is all open for debate at any time. Calling it all “theft” encourages us to use old patterns that are more and more outliving their usefulness. Why would the old patterns be outliving their usefulness? The way I see it, the rightness and wrongness of things haven’t changed. All that’s changed is how easy it is to pirate a book, song, video game, etc. Something becoming easier to do doesn’t mean it becomes more morally correct. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/169 "2024-05-22T20:17:29Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > old patterns be outliving their usefulness? The way I see it, the rightness and wrongness of things haven’t changed. But what is the “thing”? I interpret most of your arguments here as “because it is wrong to pirate, piracy is theft.” My point is that ‘theft’ is not a useful paradigm with which to understand, prosecute and punish many agreed-upon-bad-actions that can happen with intellectual property. I’m curious about a discussion around the divergent examples I posted. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/170 "2024-05-22T20:39:37Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > If you’re codifying laws then maybe it’s worth debating what the definition of theft is for physical vs immaterial things. If discussing morality, then a lot of the word-by-word legalism loses its value. Morality is intimately related to the harm caused by your actions. The harm caused by, for example, pirating $100 software you could never afford to buy, is significantly different than the harm caused by stealing $100 of baby formula from some lady’s kitchen. One of these thefts will go completely unnoticed by your victim even if the software company was one dude in his basement who sold 3 copies this month. The other will cause an immediate crisis, a real crisis involving real people who have to solve the problem right now. Immaterial things just don’t drive the same impact when they’re stolen. A guy could pirate every song written in the last 50 years and not have the same impact as that one lady with the missing formula. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/171 "2024-05-22T20:42:29Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Morality is intimately related to the harm caused by your actions. Nah. Doing seedy shit where no one notices is still doing seedy shit. “No one’s gonna notice” is just trying to convince yourself it was okay. Cheating on your partner is fine so long as they don’t catch you, right? No harm, no foul. If someone has to spend multiple paragraphs of linguistic gymnastics redefining “stealing” to justify why it’s okay to steal stuff, that should probably be a red flag. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/172 "2024-05-22T20:58:30Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If someone would not have purchased the digital good, then they have not caused any harm to anyone. And nearly everyone who pirates will claim that is the case. “I didnt want to buy it- so I stole it.” I mean if you want something and you steal it, that means you would have considered buying it. > [@BigT](#): > > And, finally, I’m against the OP’s idea that people who literally cannot purchase a digital good are doing anything wrong by pirating it. That’s why the distinction is relevant. Stealing is wrong except for necessity (e.g. stealing food and water to live). Pirating is wrong unless it causes no harm. But it does harm. Mind you I had a friend that argued that his pirating stuff that you just can not buy doesnt hurt anyone, and I kinda see the point. What “harm” does it do to cheat on your taxes? I mean even $1000 of cheating is de minimis in light of the overall Federal budget- but as Nero Wolfe said "_A man condemning the income tax because of the annoyance it gives him or the expense it puts him to is merely a dog baring its teeth, and he forfeits the privileges of civilized discourse"._ and then- iirc-_he might cheat someone at some time but he does not cheat women and children and other people who need the taxes he pays; he does not cheat millions of people all at once._ However- the harm is besides the point here- it is illegal and immoral and unethical. > [@Horatius](#): > > Except that “society” functioned perfectly well without any notion of “intellectual property” for literally thousands of years. It took only about 300 years after the invention of the Printing Press for GB to pass a copyright law in 1710, and the uSA in 1790. Long, long before the internet. It is only in the last few hundred years that mass copying of something your stole was even possible. > [@Horatius](#): > > Ridiculous copyright terms extensions bought by Disney notwithstanding, Not just Disney- lots joined in. > [@bump](#): > > **What everyone is arguing is that effectively piracy steals the revenue of the software/music/book/video/etc. creator.** Right. Less income= stealing. > [@Eonwe](#): > > My digital release is pirated 10000 times, but from the same person. > [@Eonwe](#): > > My digital release is pirated once, and the pirater makes 9999 copies, puts those copies onto a hard drive and then smashes the drive. See- sure in those cases the Pirate has only effectively stolen one copy. But those things dont happen, unless the person is insane. So bringing them up is pointless. > [@Jophiel](#): > > Nah. Doing seedy shit where no one notices is still doing seedy shit. “No one’s gonna notice” is just trying to convince yourself it was okay. Cheating on your partner is fine so long as they don’t catch you, right? No harm, no foul. Right. Theft is theft ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/173 "2024-05-22T21:06:48Z")
> [@bump](#): > > What everyone is arguing is that effectively piracy steals the revenue of the software/music/book/video/etc. creator. I don’t think it’s even that complicated: It’s not yours, it belongs to someone else, you don’t have permission to take it, keep your (digital) hands to yourself. It doesn’t matter if the owner will never notice or if they’ll be forced to live under a bridge and eat mice; you don’t get to decide when it’s okay for you to take other people’s shit. Especially not with excuses like “They won’t notice” or “I don’t like how they made this so now I deserve free copies of it” This is stuff we teach three year olds. Granted, three year olds don’t respond with pedantic diatribes about the true meaning of “theft”. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2024, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/174 "2024-05-23T00:33:57Z")
There’s a dynamic toll schedule that charges more depending on how crowded the toll lanes are. They’re usually not overcrowded as a result. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2024, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/175 "2024-05-23T02:07:02Z")
The question I had was, how crowded are the free lanes? Crowded enough to drastically slow down traffic? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2024, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/176 "2024-05-23T02:26:14Z")
Probably since forever. But I think a lot of people have a perception that America only functions for a select elite few while the rest have trouble making ends meet and enjoying those benefits is permanently out of reach. I think that perception of people not getting what they deserve in terms of compensation or services. OTOH, I also think it provides an excuse for a lot of people who already felt entitled and don’t feel like working. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2024, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/177 "2024-05-23T03:45:02Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > This is stuff we teach three year olds. Granted, three year olds don’t respond with pedantic diatribes about the true meaning of “theft”. Ohhh - _snap!_ However, it’s completely true- posters rationalizing why it is Okay for _them_ to steal. Now out here in CA we have Toll LANES- which do go faster. But you do not need them. So fair. And the toll lanes are added lanes. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2024, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/178 "2024-05-23T13:20:13Z")
I don’t disagree. I pay my tolls, and as soon as I actually made enough money to do so, I have always bought all my video games, music, etc… And I’m under no illusions that the games I pirated and CDs I copied back in high school and college were anything but theft. Rather low-key theft, but still theft. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2024, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/179 "2024-05-23T13:43:48Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Rather low-key theft Yeah, if people just said “Sure, I technically stole those movies but it’s a pretty venial act and I can’t pretend it bothers me” then, sure. It’s the justifications and entitlement and semantic gymnastics that make it so eye-rolling. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2024, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802/180 "2024-05-23T14:16:23Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I don’t disagree. I pay my tolls, and as soon as I actually made enough money to do so, I have always bought all my video games, music, etc… Generally speaking, there’s no reason for me to pirate anything. Not only do I think creators should be paid for intellectual property, if I dislike a video game company, I simply won’t buy the game even if I think I’d like it. And at this point in my life, cost really isn’t an issue when it comes to entertainment. I can afford to pay full price for movies, music, games, etc., etc. I rarely pay full price for games because I’m perfectly willing to wait until they’re discounted. I don’t play video games as much as I did when I was younger so it’s not a big deal to me. And quite frankly, I don’t even know where to go to pirate games or movies if I were so inclined. And if I did, I’d be too worried about malware. I will admit there’s one thing I’ve pirated in the last 24 years. In the early 1990s, a company called Prometheus produced _Interface_ which was a, well, not quite a magazine but not quite a book, but it was a series of booklets they’d published 3 times a year with information for R. Talsorian’s Cyberpunk role playing game. (And I apologize for the nerd content of this post.) R. Talsorian currently offers their old Cyberpunk line in both print-on-demand and digital form and I was happy to pay to own them again. The old Interface zines are not available, I suspect because of rights issues with either Prometheus and/or the various authors who contributed. I did find some original compies at places like eBay, but they were somewhat expensive. Interface only ran for six issues, and you can currently purchase them in a single lot on eBay for $275. While I was searching for a place to buy the zines I came across a site that had digital copies. It wasn’t a retail site and I went ahead and dowloaded them in PDF form. If they’re ever available through a legitimate retail outlet I’d be happy to pay for them. But until then, I don’t really feel bad for pirating them. Did I reall steal anything? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-something-being-high-cost-or-inconvenient-translate-into-entitlement/1001802.md?page=10)