# When did the American Empire begin **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 13, 2024, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724 "2024-10-13T18:14:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/61 "2024-10-16T08:46:14Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > “American” “imperialism” surely predates “American empire” because it predates anything that is functionally American; at no time until after the Treaty of Paris were the original 13 colonies truly legally and recognizably differentiated from the other contiguous British colonies and the arguably more important British colonies in the West Indies. No effective central control existed for another half-dozen years. Yet those 13 colonies certainly thought themselves enough of _an_ identifiable, distinguishable entity to stand together against Britain and not include, say, the West Indian colonies. There was _a_ commonality there. Also, slight thing, but could you be specific about which Treaty of Paris you’re referring to, as the 1763 one is also of relevance here. I’m assuming the 1783 one, as that’s the one in your poll and I imagine your argument is that before than there was no US anyway so why would anyone care about the pre-Revolution one, but for _my_ argument, the 1763 one is actually the more important one, as it includes the first big territorial expansion beyond the original 13, and hence the true birth of the Empire. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/62 "2024-10-16T11:50:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So very untrue. The Mexican Constitution excused Texas from their general ban on slavery, It did not. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/63 "2024-10-16T12:02:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So very untrue. The Mexican Constitution excused Texas from their general ban on slavery I just read up on this. Not only is this untrue, but the [Law of April 6, 1830](https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/law-of-april-6-1830) reiterated and strengthened the ban on slavery and was a major impetus for the rebellion. It was passed before Santa Anna came to power. Where are you getting this claim from? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/64 "2024-10-16T12:10:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _King Kalākaua would die in 1891 and be succeeded by his sister Lili’uokalani. In 1893 with support from marines from the USS Boston Queen Lili’uokalani would be deposed in a bloodless coup._ Not mention is the fact that the Queen abrogated the Constitution You’re leaving out some important things: 1. The coup was bloodless because the queen didn’t have an army, and because 162 US Marines had taken up station around the palace to make it clear that they would fight, and because White Americans and American-born settlers had taken up arms and made it clear that they would fight, and because the US had a reputation for bloodiness by that point, and because the Queen knew that there would be massive bloodshed that would ultimately have the same result. 2. The constitution that she “abrogated” is still nicknamed the Bayonet Constitution, in reference to what it was signed at the point of. The previous monarch was told: sign this constitution that gives massive power to American businessmen, or we assassinate you. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/65 "2024-10-16T13:18:33Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > What’s _the_ definition of an empire? I can give _one_ definition of an empire: a nation that sends its young people into foreign lands, and when some of them get killed, according to what’s expeditious, hails them as heroes and names things after them; of it that’s counter to what’s convenient, tells the surviving young people to keep quiet if they want to stay out of prison, and claims the fatality was a “training incident.” That’s not really a _definition_, though, is it? It’s an example of a thing that an entity you might consider an “Empire” would do. It isn’t the _definition_ of what an Empire is, though. So we can’t really use it to tell whether any given entity is or is not an Empire. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/66 "2024-10-16T13:28:29Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > There is also another term in these discussions: “hegemon” – a power that dominates and can impose its will over a broad area beyond what it controls de jure or by occupation. Yes, America has definitely expressed _hegemony_ over much of the rest of the world, especially in the post cold war era. That doesn’t make the US an _empire_, though. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/67 "2024-10-16T13:41:30Z")
It sounds like the working definition for the non-professionals in the thread amounts to “international bully”. Damn near every country is one of those; they just differ on who they choose to pick on and in which era they were doing their peak picking. Of course the bigger and more powerful you are, the more, and more severe, picking-on you can do. Even those perennial Nice Guys® the Canadians were pretty beastly to the First Nations as they expanded the White Man’s dominion over the white landscape. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/68 "2024-10-16T16:06:24Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Maybe we should just agree on what an empire is first. What distinguishes empire from multi-ethnic nation where some of those ethnicities have traditionally territory and are largely disenfranchised, either de jure (historically) or de facto (e.g. Hawai’ians, particularly Hawai’ian-speaking Hawai’ians, are a minority in their own country)? My personal view, I’m not a historian, would be that Imperalism differs from expansion in that the intent of the conquering country is not to incorporate that entity into itself, but to leave it as a distinct entity under the thumb of the controlling power. I would say that this distinction was the impetus of the US war of independence. So I would say that the expansion of the US west was not imperialism. If the US had left the native tribes in tact and then demanded tribute then it would have been imperialism. But by kicking them out and moving in our own people it was simply a genocidal land grab. Contrast this with India, which the British never intended to make part of Britain. Hawaii is a bit interesting in that it started out as imperialism but once enough white people found how nice it was there and moved in it changed to expansion. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/69 "2024-10-16T20:15:44Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > It did not. > **[Mexican Texas](https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/mexican-texas)** > > The Handbook of Texas is your number one authoritative source for Texas history. Read this entry and thousands more like it on our site. _The Law of April 6, 1830, was the second action of the national government to affect Texas in less than year. In September 1829 President [Vicente Guerrero](https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/guerrero-vicente-ramon) issued a decree abolishing slavery, although Texas received an exemption in December,_ > **[Slavery and the Myth of the Alamo](https://www.historynewsnetwork.org/article/slavery-and-the-myth-of-the-alamo)** > > Two and a half million people visit the Alamo each year where, according to its website, “men made the ultimate sacrifice for freedom,” making it “hallowed ground and the Shrine of Texas Liberty.”There can be no doubt that the symbolism of the Alamo... _Mexico had in fact abolished slavery in 1829, causing panic among the Texas slaveholders, overwhelmingly immigrants from the south of the United States. They in turn sent Stephen Austin to Mexico City to complain. Austin was able to wrest from the Mexican authorities an exemption for the department – Texas was technically a department of the state of Coahuila y Tejas – that would allow the vile institution to continue._ > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I just read up on this. Not only is this untrue, but the [Law of April 6, 1830](https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/law-of-april-6-1830) reiterated and strengthened the ban on slavery and was a major impetus for the rebellion _The law, reasonable from the Mexican point of view, authorized a loan to finance the cost of transporting colonists to Texas, opened the coastal trade to foreigners for four years, provided for a federal commissioner of colonization to supervise [empresario](https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/empresario) contracts in conformity with the general colonization law, forbade the further introduction of slaves into Mexico,_ ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/70 "2024-10-16T20:19:24Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > …the Navy’s Great White Fleet 'round the world voyage of 1907. That’s what leapt to my mind first. WWI then really put the US on the global power map. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/71 "2024-10-16T20:28:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The coup was bloodless because the queen didn’t have an army, and because 162 U _Early in the evening of Jan. 16, 1893, Navy [Lt. Lucien Young](https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/us-people/y/young-lucien/nh-56555.html) led a force of 162 American [Marines and sailors](http://libweb.hawaii.edu/digicoll/annexation/images/pic5.php) from the USS Boston as they disembarked the ship anchored in Honolulu Bay and marched up the city’s cobblestone streets roughly half a mile to Aliʻiōlani Hale — then the seat of government for the Kingdom of Hawaii — to carry out [a bloodless coup](https://www.historynet.com/queens-ransom.htm) in the name of the US government._ _The American force occupied Aliʻiōlani Hale and its adjacent buildings, which stood directly across the street from Iolani Palace, where Liliʻuokalani lived. Although the American force had Gatling guns and light artillery, the queen had a palace guard force of almost 600 soldiers, artillery of her own, and a defensible position._ That certainly seems like an army. And they took up a station around Aliʻiōlani Hale, where the Committee of Safety was based. The palace was nearby, but the 160 Marines did not enter it or surround it. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The constitution that she “abrogated” is still nicknamed the Bayonet Constitution, in reference to what it was signed at the point of. T Read it ([1887 Constitution of the Hawaiian Kingdom - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1887_Constitution_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom)) he 1887 constitution followed modern liberal principles. It replaced the previous absolute veto, allowed to the king, to one that two-thirds of the [legislature of the Hawaiian Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislature_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom) could override. It also took away the power of the king to act without the consent of his cabinet and gave the legislature the power to dismiss the cabinet instead of the king. It also removed language from the [1864 constitution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1864_Constitution_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom) implying that the king was above the law, replacing it with language that the king was required to obey his laws to the level of his subjects. The cabinet was now allowed to vote in the legislature, but to reduce the king’s influence, he was not allowed to appoint legislators to any other government post. The legislature also gained the authority to imprison those that disrespected, published false reports or comments about or threatened or assaulted any of its members.[[11]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1887_Constitution_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom#cite_note-hooilina.org-11) Hardly evil. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > It sounds like the working definition for the non-professionals in the thread amounts to “international bully”. Damn near every country is one of those; they just differ on who they choose to pick on and in which era they were doing their peak picking. Of course the bigger and more powerful you are, the more, and more severe, picking-on you can do. > > Even those perennial Nice Guys® the Canadians were pretty beastly to the First Nations as they expanded the White Man’s dominion over the white landscape. I am not sure that bullying or taking over your own territory is “imperialism”. Yes, what the Americas did to their native population is a tragedy but not imperialism. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/72 "2024-10-16T20:36:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I am not sure that bullying or taking over your own territory is “imperialism”. I totally grant the distinction between governing newly controlled territory by making it part of your own country co-equal with all your existing territory versus governing newly controlled territory by making it a colony / overseas territory / vassal state / choose your favorite term. But I find the idea of “taking over your own territory” tone deaf. If it needs taking over it isn’t yours. Until you do take it over; then it is yours by force of arms, but whoever used to have it is now dispossessed and also mightily pissed about that. Unless genocided too, in which case there’s (almost) nobody left to complain. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/73 "2024-10-16T20:42:17Z")
I find this discussion interesting. I hope there won’t be a prolonged back and forth about facts, though. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I’d put the start at 1823 and the Monroe Doctrine. It stated the US was powerful enough to stand up to Europe if need be. I think this is a crucial first step. Telling the world that The Americas/Western Hemisphere the under the aegis of the U.S. that early showed the world the extent of American exceptionalism. > **[Monroe Doctrine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine)** > > The Monroe Doctrine is a United States foreign policy position that opposes European colonialism in the Western Hemisphere. It holds that any intervention in the political affairs of the Americas by foreign powers is a potentially hostile act against the United States. The doctrine was central to American grand strategy in the 20th century. > President James Monroe first articulated the doctrine on December 2, 1823, during his seventh annual State of the Union Address to Congress (though it wo... As an outsider I can’t think of the U.S. in the sense of Empire before > [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > July 16th, 1945. (Trinity test) if at all. I mean, there’s no real consensus in this thread about what an empire is. Let’s use Rome as a template. Was the republic an Empire. Per definitions by historians, no. Or it would have been the Roman Empire at that point. The most common starting point is Octavian/Augustus. I also pick Rome since it lasted a fairly long time, especially compared to Alexander and Kahn. Possibly the rapid expansion of Islam can compare but it was splintered into sectarianism from the start, whereas Rome managed to keep control over the Mediterranean basin from before the Empire era and up to the split. If Rome was big and powerful before actually becoming an Empire, applying that template to the U.S. I do think the end of WWII. But only if we think of the U.S: in the second half of the 20th century as an Empire. Personally, I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/74 "2024-10-16T20:56:25Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > > I’d put the start at 1823 and the Monroe Doctrine. It stated the US was powerful enough to stand up to Europe if need be. > > I think this is a crucial first step. Telling the world that The Americas/Western Hemisphere the under the aegis of the U.S. that early showed the world the extent of American exceptionalism. The Monroe Doctrine is surely anti-imperialist? I understand the claim that it represents a wielding of American soft power. But at the end of the day, soft power IS meaningfully different than hard power. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/75 "2024-10-16T21:00:23Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > Was the republic an Empire. The Roman Republic already controlled vast territories full of people who they ruled over as subjects, not citizens. I think they absolutely could be described as Imperialist. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/76 "2024-10-16T21:05:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The Roman Republic already controlled vast territories full of people who they ruled over as subjects, not citizens. I think they absolutely could be described as Imperialist. Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/77 "2024-10-16T21:59:41Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > But I find the idea of “taking over your own territory” tone deaf. If it needs taking over it isn’t yours. Until you do take it over; then it is yours by force of arms, but whoever used to have it is now dispossessed and also mightily pissed about that. Unless genocided too True - again we get into the overlapping terminologies. _Conquest_ is something we _associate_ with imperialistic conduct, but is not something _exclusive_ to empire. > [@Babale](#): > > The Monroe Doctrine is surely anti-imperialist? As alluded earlier upthread, it is better seen along the lines of being hegemonic. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/78 "2024-10-16T22:05:59Z")
The “benign hegemon with no designs on others’ territory” was certainly the hagiographic gloss of a lot of US civics and history texts from ~1920 until it could no longer be said with a straight (enough) face. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/79 "2024-10-16T22:08:08Z")
While already in the 1930s Smedley Butler would tell anyone who’d listen what a load that was. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/80 "2024-10-16T22:20:46Z")
Teddy Roosevelt always sought a path between the authoritarian monopolists and the Socialist. To that end he advocated imperialism in all but name. The US simply produced more than it could consume back then, and the robber barons were loath to pay their workers enough to buy the things they made. So foreign markets were the answer. The crap about helping “our little brown brothers” convinced nobody at all, and the working expression of that was “civilize them with a [Krag.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a7/Gev%C3%A4r_f%C3%B6rs%C3%B6ksmodell_1892_Krag-J%C3%B6rgensen_Norge_-_Arm%C3%A9museum.jpg/800px-Gev%C3%A4r_f%C3%B6rs%C3%B6ksmodell_1892_Krag-J%C3%B6rgensen_Norge_-_Arm%C3%A9museum.jpg) Years later, a fat and happy US was legitimately more able to practice “benign hegemony.” The Marshall Plan, Peace Corps, etc. and also the Mekong Delta Project: our Tennessee Valley Authority gifted to the Vietnamese. Somehow it failed to translate, and LBJ might have fared better had he followed Stalin’s example of “Socialism in One Country,” replacing “Welfare Capitalism” as the economic system of choice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724.md?page=5)