# When did the American Empire begin **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 13, 2024, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724 "2024-10-13T18:14:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/81 "2024-10-16T22:39:28Z")
Agree w your whole post but ref this bit specifically … > [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > The US simply produced more than it could consume back then, and the robber barons were loath to pay their workers enough to buy the things they made. So foreign markets were the answer. The crap about helping “our little brown brothers” convinced nobody at all, and the working expression of that was “civilize them with a Krag." What’s funny is except for some nods to locally fashionable terminology that’s exactly the Chinese plan of the last ~40 years. Right down to the patronizing racism ref the lesser humans not of The Middle Kingdom. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/82 "2024-10-16T22:50:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The Law of April 6, 1830, was the second action of the national government to affect Texas in less than year. In September 1829 President [Vicente Guerrero](https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/guerrero-vicente-ramon) issued a decree abolishing slavery, although Texas received an exemption in December, This was a decree, not a provision of the Mexican Constitution as you stated. And the exemption for Texas was explicitly a temporary measure – as your own cites state – that was removed within a year. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2024, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/83 "2024-10-16T23:54:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That certainly seems like an army. I don’t care what it “seems like,” it “wasn’t” an army. It’s absurd to suggest that she could have had her guard (not army, guard) fire on US Marines, killing US soldiers, and had that result in anything less than a massacre of her citizens. Come on now. As for the rest of your points? Come on now. I can hardly credit them as being offered with thought and care. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/84 "2024-10-17T00:05:04Z")
The USS Boston could lob 8” shells over seven miles. Iolani Palace is five blocks from Honolulu Harbor ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/85 "2024-10-17T00:09:47Z")
The only date I can justify is July 2, 1776. This marks the definitive break with what went before. The French and Indian War was the occasion for people from different colonies to meet and compare notes, leading to a nascent awareness of Americans as a single people. After the F&IW, King George decreed no settlement of the West; it was made the Indian Reserve. The independent United States proceeded to immediately settle the West. I know this because I’m descended from a Revolutionary War veteran who pioneered west of the Alleghenies after the Revolution. Rome was an imperialistic republic until Octavius changed it into an imperialistic monarchy a.k.a. empire. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/86 "2024-10-17T00:51:51Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Rome was an imperialistic republic until Octavius changed it into an imperialistic monarchy a.k.a. empire. If you’re going to split that hair, then the US is also an imperialist republic and not an empire. At least so far. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/87 "2024-10-17T00:53:57Z")
Yes, of course it is. Obviously. The difference between a republic and a monarchy isn’t a split hair but a crucial difference. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/88 "2024-10-17T01:11:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The Monroe Doctrine is surely anti-imperialist? But IIRC it was used to justify the Westward Expansion. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/89 "2024-10-17T01:20:18Z")
Remember that 37 years after the Monroe Doctrine, the Royal Navy defended its Honduran colony from filibuster William Walker by turning him over to Nicaragua for execution. Not germaine to the topic _if_ we’re sure Walker was always intent on setting himself up as an independent dictator, and not as a (slavery-based) exclave of the US. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/90 "2024-10-17T01:25:23Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The difference between a republic and a monarchy isn’t a split hair but a crucial difference. To the dominant power, yes. I suspect the dominatees didn’t notice much difference between the occupying republican legions and the occupying imperial legions. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/91 "2024-10-17T01:35:45Z")
It’s those damn British whose messed everything up. Gibbon’s _The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire_ (six volumes, the first published in 1776) both spooked and inspired the Brits and through them the Americans. Wiki provides a convenient quotation (from Piers Brendon’s _The Decline and Fall of the British Empire, 1781–1997_): > Gibbon’s work “became the essential guide for Britons anxious to plot their own imperial trajectory. They found the key to understanding the British Empire in the ruins of Rome.” The Brits did not follow the Roman model, of course; outright conquest with all the manpower and cost involved proved unnecessary when superior technology taking down individual monarchs could provide the same results. Americans learned that lesson and applied it after WWII: hegemony worked even better than imperialism. Being the world’s sole superpower - economically and culturally more than militarily perhaps - is an enviable position (as evidenced by the world’s envy, some of it distinctly unhealthy). Actions speak louder than words: nobody truly cares whether America is an empire, a hegemonic republic, an imperialist, or a superpower. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/92 "2024-10-17T20:39:15Z")
If it quacks like a duck … ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/93 "2024-10-17T20:52:56Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Americans learned that lesson and applied it after WWII: hegemony worked even better than imperialism. Though between the 1900s and 1930s they switched to the method of intervening, “pacifying” and setting up a loyal client to hand it over to — Panama, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, etc. before switching to just backing and arming an already existing local faction. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2024, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/94 "2024-10-17T21:47:16Z")
Shhh. Don’t tell anyone that the CIA kept on doing it into the 50s. They’re the good guys, remember. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2024, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/95 "2024-10-18T08:08:11Z")
50’s? Really? AFAIK they’re still at it : :cough: Ukraine 2014 :cough: ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2024, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/96 "2024-10-18T12:44:16Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > AFAIK they’re still at it : > :cough: Ukraine 2014 :cough: The US did not cause revolution in Ukraine. That is an excuse the Russians manufactured to invade. Also, the Orange Revolution happened in 2004, not 2014 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2024, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/97 "2024-10-18T12:48:29Z")
While I certainly understand criticism of US hegemony and the way it chooses to wield it, I do have one question. If the US was _not_ a hegemon, is the idea that we’d have a bunch of free and prosperous countries happily singing hand in hand around the whole world? Or would some other Great Power, or collection of Great Powers, be out there forming its own hegemony? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2024, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/98 "2024-10-18T13:02:00Z")
**Moderating** > [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > 50’s? Really? > > AFAIK they’re still at it : > :cough: Ukraine 2014 :cough: > [@Babale](#): > > The US did not cause revolution in Ukraine. That is an excuse the Russians manufactured to invade. Absolutely take this to a new thread, do not continue it here. **If you are responding to something in a thread that is basically off-topic or likely to lead to a hijack, try this:** How to **Reply as a linked Topic** : Click Reply, in the upper left corner of the reply window is the reply type button, _looks like a curving arrow point to the right_. Choose **Reply as linked topic** and it starts a new thread. As an example, you can choose GD, IMHO or The Pit for it. That is actually the best method. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2024, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/101 "2024-10-18T13:07:25Z")
> **[Nirvana fallacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy)** > > The nirvana fallacy is the informal fallacy of comparing actual things with unrealistic, idealized alternatives. It can also refer to the tendency to assume there is a perfect solution to a particular problem. A closely related concept is the "perfect solution fallacy". > By creating a false dichotomy that presents one option which is obviously advantageous—while at the same time being completely implausible—a person using the nirvana fallacy can attack any opposing idea because it is imperfect. ... ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2024, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724/102 "2024-10-18T13:16:16Z")
You completely missed my point. First, can you actually make the case that a non-polar world is inherently better than either a multipolar world with a handful of great powers or a unipolar world, led by the US or by someone else? Second, can a non-polar world actually exist? If it cannot, which multipolar or unipolar combination of superpowers do you propose would do better than the US? It’s like the argument about third party voters in the US. OK, you wish Luxembourg ruled the world, or that we had a loose confederation of Nations who respect each other’s borders, whatever. You’re voting third party. Meanwhile, the Democrats (US) and Republicans (China, Russia) are the only two parties that actually have a shot at winning, so do you throw your vote away or vote for the one you slightly prefer? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-american-empire-begin/1008724.md?page=6)