# When did the Gadsden Flag become a symbol of the hard Right / extremism?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 24, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538 "2009-08-24T19:50:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/1 "2009-08-24T19:50:49Z")
I bought a Gadsden flag tshirt a few years ago. We learned about it in elementary school and I always thought it was just a cool-looking flag with a simple, honorable message: don’t mess with me and I won’t mess with you; respect. Not to mention it was a symbol of the revolution, which I think was a very cool time in history and political thought.
But now I’m sort of reluctant to wear it anymore. I keep hearing it mentioned along with teabaggers, town hall nutters, right-wing militias, etc.
I don’t like to wear my beliefs on my sleeve so even if I was a town hall mouth-foamer I don’t know if I’d be comfortable wearing it, but I just happen to be a very liberal guy, and I generally support (voted for) President Obama.
How likely am I to be seen as a right-wing nutjob by wearing this shirt? I’m a university student and would rather not bias my (no doubt very liberal :p) professors against me.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/2 "2009-08-24T20:04:54Z")
Just like the American flag - if liberals stop waving it it becomes a de facto conservative symbol, even if that was not the intent of anyone involved.
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### Author:  [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/3 "2009-08-24T22:41:08Z")
It was a symbol of extremism from the moment it was created. Who do you think the participants in the Revolution were rebelling against, if not their own (British) government?
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### Author:  [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/4 "2009-08-24T23:04:20Z")
Uh, **Mr. Moto** , are you really claiming the American flag is a conservative symbol?
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### Author:  [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)
#### Post date: [August 24, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/5 "2009-08-24T23:40:06Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#):
>
> Uh, **Mr. Moto** , are you really claiming the American flag is a conservative symbol?
The conservatives have endlessly tried to make it a conservative symbol. “Wrap themselves in the flag”, so to speak. That’s why they have made such big issues as the Pledge of Allegiance and Constitutional amendments forbidding desecration of the flag. Remember during the last Presidential campaign that the right-wing whack jobs actually made an issue of whether Obama was wearing a flag lapel pin? Now do you get it?
The liberals and independents have fought back by making sure the flag is prominently displayed during public appearances to keep the conservatives from laying claim to the flag as a symbol of political persuasion.
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/6 "2009-08-25T00:51:14Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#):
>
> It was a symbol of extremism from the moment it was created. Who do you think the participants in the Revolution were rebelling against, if not their own (British) government?
Our revolution is not commonly thought of as one of extremism. Extremist regimes tending not to thrive and prosper for 200+ years and all, you know.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/7 "2009-08-25T00:52:08Z")
> [@Spartydog](#):
>
> The conservatives have endlessly tried to make it a conservative symbol. “Wrap themselves in the flag”, so to speak.
Yup, just another excuse to bloviate:
From late 2007:
[Obama’s ‘Missing’ Flag Pin](http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3196)
From May 2008:
[Obama’s Flag Pin Reappears](http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/05/14/obamas-flag-pin-reappears/)
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### Author:  [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/8 "2009-08-25T00:53:35Z")
> [@Spartydog](#):
>
> The conservatives have endlessly tried to make it a conservative symbol.
Actually, no. Liberals have treated it as a near-fascist symbol.
“…the flag stands for jingoism and vengeance and war.” Katha Pollit, _The Nation_, 9/20/2001 [http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011008/pollitt](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011008/pollitt)
After 9/11, Berkeley “Fire Chief Reginald Garcia ordered that flags be removed from fire trucks for the day in order to avoid making them the target of violence by anti-war demonstrators”. [Berkeley Fire Truck Flag Ban | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/rumors/berkeley.asp)
> [@](#):
>
> The liberals and independents have fought back by making sure the flag is prominently displayed during public appearances to keep the conservatives from laying claim to the flag as a symbol of political persuasion.
In essence, you’re saying that the conservatives have cynically adopted the tactic of wrapping themselves in the flag, so in response liberals are nobly wrapping themselves in the flag.
Are we supposed to take you seriously?
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### Author:  [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/9 "2009-08-25T00:57:56Z")
> [@Cisco](#):
>
> But now I’m sort of reluctant to wear it anymore. I keep hearing it mentioned along with teabaggers, town hall nutters, right-wing militias, etc.
Per the [Wiki article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag), it looks like it’s being used recently by (among others) Libertarian secessionists from Vermont, by “Tea Party” attendees this year, and by militias. It appears to be not merely associated with these groups by liberals, but by the groups themselves.
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### Author:  [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/10 "2009-08-25T01:05:07Z")
> [@Cisco](#):
>
> Our revolution is not commonly thought of as one of extremism. Extremist regimes tending not to thrive and prosper for 200+ years and all, you know.
History is written by the winners. The men who started this country were were criminals, traitors, and maybe (depending on your definition) domestic terrorists.
Oh yeah , and MILITIA MEMBERS! :eek::eek::eek:
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/11 "2009-08-25T01:06:27Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#):
>
> History is written by the winners. The men who started this country were were criminals, traitors, and maybe (depending on your definition) domestic terrorists.
>
> Oh yeah , and MILITIA MEMBERS! :eek::eek::eek:
:rolleyes: Take that shit somewhere else. It’s only very tenuously true if at all, and has nothing to do with this thread.
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### Author:  [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/12 "2009-08-25T01:06:55Z")
Yeah, this one is going to stay in GQ for a long time…
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### Author:  [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/13 "2009-08-25T01:33:24Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#):
>
> Actually, no. Liberals have treated it as a near-fascist symbol.
>
> “…the flag stands for jingoism and vengeance and war.” Katha Pollit, _The Nation_, 9/20/2001 [http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011008/pollitt](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20011008/pollitt)
>
> After 9/11, Berkeley “Fire Chief Reginald Garcia ordered that flags be removed from fire trucks for the day in order to avoid making them the target of violence by anti-war demonstrators”. [Berkeley Fire Truck Flag Ban | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/rumors/berkeley.asp)
>
> In essence, you’re saying that the conservatives have cynically adopted the tactic of wrapping themselves in the flag, so in response liberals are nobly wrapping themselves in the flag.
>
> Are we supposed to take you seriously?
Are we suppose to believe that you can read and intellectually process information? Yes, there are radicals that have demonized the flag. That means nothing and is not pertinent to what is being discussed.
Anybody that is not right wing has realized that it is politically necessary to not distance themselves themselves from the symbol of the flag and let it get adopted by the right wing as their banner of legitimacy. In a sense, it’s like a company not letting their trademark become generic or misused.
Notice anything in particular about this photo from Obama’s victory speech?
[http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/Obama%20gives%20Iraq%20speech.jpg](http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/Obama%20gives%20Iraq%20speech.jpg)
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### Author:  [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/14 "2009-08-25T01:38:49Z")
> [@Spartydog](#):
>
> Notice anything in particular about this photo from Obama’s victory speech?
>
> [http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/Obama%20gives%20Iraq%20speech.jpg](http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/Obama%20gives%20Iraq%20speech.jpg)
😕 Obama can’t whistle?
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### Author:  [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/15 "2009-08-25T02:55:05Z")
It’s so irritating. I want to wear my Che t-shirt just because I like the picture, but people keep giving me fist-pump salutes!
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### Author:  [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/16 "2009-08-25T04:09:10Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#):
>
> It’s so irritating. I want to wear my Che t-shirt just because I like the picture, but people keep giving me fist-pump salutes!
How does that correlate to the Gadsden flag?
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### Author:  [@Number43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Number43)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/17 "2009-08-25T04:34:24Z")
The Gadsden Flag is not a symbol for all far-right people, as the right/left divide is a simplification of all the different kinds of political standpoints… It is a flag for anti-government people, though sometimes in other contexts also for extreme nationalism.
Think about it this way: to many people the flag seems to be saying saying you don’t want anyone else to oppress you or tell you what to do. This is basically the libertarian position. Though other times some people use it differently by interpreting it as "don’t mess with the US.
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### Author:  [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/18 "2009-08-25T04:53:51Z")
Given the tone of the OP, I don’t think there was much chance of this one staying in GQ from the get-go. Off to GD.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
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### Author:  [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/19 "2009-08-25T05:43:51Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#):
>
> Uh, **Mr. Moto** , are you really claiming the American flag is a conservative symbol?
I find more odd the apparent claim that the American flag isn’t waved by liberals anymore.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [August 25, 2009, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gadsden-flag-become-a-symbol-of-the-hard-right-extremism/507538/20 "2009-08-25T05:51:06Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#):
>
> I find more odd the apparent claim that the American flag isn’t waved by liberals anymore.
> **[Daily Kos](https://www.dailykos.com/)**
>
> Daily Kos is a progressive news site that fights for democracy by giving our audience information and resources to win elections and impact government. Our coverage is assiduously factual, ethical, and unapologetically liberal. We amplify what we...
**Mr. Moto** ’s probably never looked at the masthead.
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