# "When Did The GOP Lose Touch With Reality" by David Frum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320 "2011-11-28T05:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/181 "2011-11-30T20:51:39Z")
I’m not going argue that a lot of us believed Weiner’s first denial. But when the truth came out, that belief died. I defy you to find anything other than a fringe of lefties who still think Weiner was framed. In contrast, how many freaking Birthers are still out there? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/182 "2011-11-30T20:52:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Breitbart's Weiner hoax: New photos surface! Analysis, and Surprise! (UPDATED)](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/30/980617/-Breitbarts-Weiner-hoax:-New-photos-surface!-Analysis,-and-Surprise!-%28UPDATED%29) > > [The Jig Is Up: Yfrog Disables E-mail Upload Service; Anthony Weiner Stands Vindicated](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/06/02/981422/-The-Jig-Is-Up:-Yfrog-Disables-E-mail-Upload-Service;-Anthony-Weiner-Stands-Vindicated?via=search) > > [http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/05/28/breitbart-publishes-risque-photo-claims-its-anthony-weiners-wiener/](http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/05/28/breitbart-publishes-risque-photo-claims-its-anthony-weiners-wiener/) > > [http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/29/980400/-Breitbarts-#TwitterHoaxHow-It-Went-Down-(updated-wsmoking-gun)?via=siderec](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/29/980400/-Breitbarts-#TwitterHoaxHow-It-Went-Down-%28updated-wsmoking-gun%29?via=siderec) > > [EXPOSED: How Weiner was framed (Updated X 2)](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/06/01/981159/-EXPOSED:-How-Weiner-was-framed-%28Updated-X-2%29) > > [Weinergate | Photo Analysis | Andrew Breitbart](http://www.mediaite.com/online/exclusive-mediaite-analysis-of-weinergate-photos-supports-anthony-weiner-and-andrew-breitbart/) > > I am sure you can find a few hundred more. Wow, some bloggers on dailykos grasping at straws. I’m convinced. :rolleyes: ETA: What jayjay said. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/183 "2011-11-30T20:57:18Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’m not going argue that a lot of us believed Weiner’s first denial. But when the truth came out, that belief died. I defy you to find anything other than a fringe of lefties who still think Weiner was framed. > > In contrast, how many freaking Birthers are still out there? The “belief died” when Wiener came out and said yes, I sent those pictures. I bet you if Obama came out and said he was, in fact, born in Kenya, some “beliefs” would die as well. There are as many Birthers out there as there are lefties who think that 2004 election was stolen from them by Diebold. Or that Bush administration was involved in 9/11 somehow. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/184 "2011-11-30T20:58:05Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’m not going argue that a lot of us believed Weiner’s first denial. But when the truth came out, that belief died. I defy you to find anything other than a fringe of lefties who still think Weiner was framed. > > In contrast, how many freaking Birthers are still out there? [shrug] That’s because Weiner finally **admitted** the truth, while Obama still hasn’t. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/185 "2011-11-30T21:01:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There are as many Birthers out there as there are lefties who think that 2004 election was stolen from them by Diebold. Oh, considerably **more,** I’m sure. And, you’re drawing a false equivalency, here, between a theory with [some arguable basis in reality](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_United_States_election_voting_controversies) and a theory with none at all. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/186 "2011-11-30T21:01:44Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/187 "2011-11-30T21:03:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There are as many Birthers out there as there are lefties who think that 2004 election was stolen from them by Diebold. Or that Bush administration was involved in 9/11 somehow. That’s ridiculous. That’s so far out of reality that it actually more or less proves Frum’s point. Nobody filed any lawsuits over either of those. Nobody continued to file lawsuits over either of those over the space of three years. Nobody actually made any political hay over either of those. I think you’ll find that Daily Kos actually explicitly forbids any discussion of “Truther” stuff. There’s nowhere near as many Truthers as there are Birthers or pseudo-Birthers who are doing it for profit of some kind, either political or monetary. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/188 "2011-11-30T21:12:36Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I think you’ll find that Daily Kos actually explicitly forbids any discussion of “Truther” stuff. There’s nowhere near as many Truthers as there are Birthers or pseudo-Birthers who are doing it for profit of some kind, either political or monetary. Also, a far higher % of Republicans believe Obama is not a “natural-born citizen” than a % of Democrats has ever believed Bush was in any way behind 9/11. The opinion some Democrats have about 9/11 is that Bush was negligent in some (or, for more radical types, many) respects and should have been held more accountable for it having happened on his watch than he was. This is a debatable point. Obama supposedly not being American has long since been resolved by all rational people. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/189 "2011-11-30T21:19:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Oh, considerably **more,** I’m sure. “You’re sure”. I’m sure otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/190 "2011-11-30T21:20:42Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I think you’ll find that Daily Kos actually explicitly forbids any discussion of “Truther” stuff. There’s nowhere near as many Truthers as there are Birthers or pseudo-Birthers who are doing it for profit of some kind, either political or monetary. Moving goalposts. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/191 "2011-11-30T21:21:24Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > The opinion some Democrats have about 9/11 is that Bush was negligent in some (or, for more radical types, many) respects . . . No, for the more radical types the theory is that the Admin was not merely negligent but treasonous, knowing of the plot and **deliberately** failing to stop it. I don’t buy that, but, it’s not a thing I would put past Cheney or Rove. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/192 "2011-11-30T21:23:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Moving goalposts. 😕 **Terr,** in case you haven’t actually been following this thread, if you’re trying to argue that Dems are as out of touch with reality as Pubs, you’re **losing,** and the goalposts have not moved. (Doesn’t mean you’re wrong, only that you’re losing.) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/193 "2011-11-30T21:31:00Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Also, a far higher % of Republicans believe Obama is not a “natural-born citizen” than a % of Democrats has ever believed Bush was in any way behind 9/11. The opinion some Democrats have about 9/11 is that Bush was negligent in some (or, for more radical types, many) respects and should have been held more accountable for it having happened on his watch than he was. This is a debatable point. Obama supposedly not being American has long since been resolved by all rational people. IIRC, a poll in 2006 found that something like 30% of Americans believe Bush Administration was behind 9/11. Do you think that 30% leans more Democrat or Republican? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/194 "2011-11-30T21:37:11Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > In contrast, how many freaking Birthers are still out there? I don’t know. How many are there? ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/195 "2011-11-30T21:46:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > IIRC, a poll in 2006 found that something like 30% of Americans believe Bush Administration was behind 9/11. Do you think that 30% leans more Democrat or Republican? Let’s see a cite for that poll. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/196 "2011-11-30T21:47:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 **Terr,** in case you haven’t actually been following this thread, if you’re trying to argue that Dems are as out of touch with reality as Pubs, you’re **losing,** and the goalposts have not moved. (Doesn’t mean you’re wrong, only that you’re losing.) If the dope-addled fleabaggers in the #Occupy movement are anything to judge by, I’d say the Dems are neck and neck with the Pubs. I might remind you that there have been no rapes at tea party events, no killings, no problems with sanitation or even litter, no tea partiers tried to stop anyone from working or shut down a whole city, nobody felt the need to defecate on a police car, and nobody had to call in a hazmat team to remove two hundred pounds of human excrement from a tea party site. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/197 "2011-11-30T21:50:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > IIRC, a poll in 2006 found that something like 30% of Americans believe Bush Administration was behind 9/11. Do you think that 30% leans more Democrat or Republican? So is the gist of your argument here that David Frum is incorrect on his criticism of the Republican party, because some proportion of the American public (presumably Democrats) hold some whacky beliefs? Is that about it? Have you read David Frum’s article? You know, the one that the OP is about? ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/198 "2011-11-30T21:51:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, for the more radical types the theory is that the Admin was not merely negligent but treasonous, knowing of the plot and **deliberately** failing to stop it. I don’t buy that, but, it’s not a thing I would put past Cheney or Rove. My point is that this nonsense about Bush being behind 9/11 was never close to a widely believed, mainstream Democrat idea; no national-level leaders of the party ever gave it any credence. Contrasting this are the Republicans, who did have national-level, mainstream GOP politicians who espoused Birther idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/199 "2011-11-30T21:53:20Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > If the dope-addled fleabaggers in the #Occupy movement are anything to judge by, I’d say the Dems are neck and neck with the Pubs. I might remind you that there have been no rapes at tea party events, no killings, no problems with sanitation or even litter, no tea partiers tried to stop anyone from working or shut down a whole city, nobody felt the need to defecate on a police car, and nobody had to call in a hazmat team to remove two hundred pounds of human excrement from a tea party site. So does your argument against David Frum’s critique of the Republican party go like this: “There are those in the occupy movement who are drug addicts, and dirty. They poop on cars and litter. The Tea Party movement has been full of clean polite people. Therefore, you conclude that David Frum’s article about the Republican party is incorrect.” That about it? That’s your debate strategy here? Have you read the article? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/200 "2011-11-30T21:53:55Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Let’s see a cite for that poll. [http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll](http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll) - I was wrong, it was 36%, not 30%. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=11)