# "When Did The GOP Lose Touch With Reality" by David Frum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320 "2011-11-28T05:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/221 "2011-12-01T00:09:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Thank you for demonstrating the Truther branch of Democrat party is alive and well. As said, it’s isn’t “Democrat Party”, it isn’t a “branch” - and I note that you carefully avoided addressing my point. Plus, I’m not even a Democrat. The fact is, Bush was warned, repeatedly; by both Clinton and his own subordinates. He did nothing, and in fact called the State Department off bin Laden. And on top of that 9-11 is exactly what the “Project for a New American Century” people associated with the Bush Administrations said they wanted; a “new Pearl Harbor”. All the indicators are that Bush knew something was coming and had every reason to want it to happen. It’s about as suspicious as a rich uncle dying right after he makes a nephew who openly hated him and wanted the money sole heir. And all Bush had to do was _nothing_, and even he could do that. Bottom line is, Bush was either criminally neglectful of duty, grossly incompetent, or _wanted_ something like 9-11 to happen. There’s no good alternatives here that fit the facts. There’s just “stupid, lazy, or evil?” ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/222 "2011-12-01T00:16:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So does your argument against David Frum’s critique of the Republican party go like this: > > “There are those in the occupy movement who are drug addicts, and dirty. They poop on cars and litter. The Tea Party movement has been full of clean polite people. > Therefore, you conclude that David Frum’s article about the Republican party is incorrect.” > > That about it? That’s your debate strategy here? Have you read the article? Yes, I’ve read the article. I didn’t think much of it. I have a hard time believing that creationists and birthers are somehow more irrational and crazy than people who think we can run a modern industrial society on sunlight and wind power and want a $30 minimum wage. In any case, the argument isn’t simply about the article, it’s also about whether lefties are more rational and less crazy than righties, or vice versa. For me, it comes down to this. I look at the tea partiers, and I look at the fleabaggers. Which group of people would I want running the community in which I live? It certainly isn’t the one that can’t even get organized enough to take care of basic sanitation. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/223 "2011-12-01T00:25:46Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Yes, I’ve read the article. I didn’t think much of it. I have a hard time believing that creationists and birthers are somehow more irrational and crazy than people who think we can run a modern industrial society on sunlight and wind power and want a $30 minimum wage. In any case, the argument isn’t simply about the article, it’s also about whether lefties are more rational and less crazy than righties, or vice versa. Well, I can show you elected Republican state representatives who say the President was not born in the United States, and is a “traitor”, and I can assure you that creationism is a common theme among elected Republicans. Can you point to a $30 minimum wage as something that elected Democratic Party politicians are currently promoting? Can you show me that it is mainstream Democratic Party thinking to run our modern society on sunlight and wind power alone? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/224 "2011-12-01T01:02:59Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > So what do you think of Frum’s premise, that the Republican Party is currently on the wrong course, that there are far too many in the party who embrace an “alternate reality” that does not have a factual basis? I think it’s wrong. > [@](#): > > He gives by way of example, not just the “birthers” within the party (which include not just the fringe, but actual elected representatives of the party, and not just in the past, but THIS MONTH), but also other problematic themes that the party is currently embracing. Is he off base with all of these problems with the party that he identifies? By singling out Republicans, yes. Actual elected representatives of Democrats fully embraced 9/11 Truthers - does that taint the Democrat party? > [@](#): > > ETA: What do you think of this Frum quote: He engages in Democrat-echo-chamber-supplied caricatures instead of debate. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/225 "2011-12-01T01:04:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As said, it’s isn’t “Democrat Party”, it isn’t a “branch” - and I note that you carefully avoided addressing my point. Plus, I’m not even a Democrat. > > The fact is, Bush was warned, repeatedly; by both Clinton and his own subordinates. He did nothing, and in fact called the State Department off bin Laden. And on top of that 9-11 is exactly what the “Project for a New American Century” people associated with the Bush Administrations said they wanted; a “new Pearl Harbor”. All the indicators are that Bush knew something was coming and had every reason to want it to happen. It’s about as suspicious as a rich uncle dying right after he makes a nephew who openly hated him and wanted the money sole heir. And all Bush had to do was _nothing_, and even he could do that. > > Bottom line is, Bush was either criminally neglectful of duty, grossly incompetent, or _wanted_ something like 9-11 to happen. There’s no good alternatives here that fit the facts. There’s just “stupid, lazy, or evil?” The more you post, the more you make my point. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/226 "2011-12-01T01:06:31Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Well, I can show you elected Republican state representatives who say the President was not born in the United States, and is a “traitor”, and I can assure you that creationism is a common theme among elected Republicans. I can show you a Democrat who was elected to US Congress that signed the “9/11 Truth” manifesto. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/227 "2011-12-01T01:07:41Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Well, I can show you elected Republican state representatives who say the President was not born in the United States, and is a “traitor”, and I can assure you that creationism is a common theme among elected Republicans. > > Can you point to a $30 minimum wage as something that elected Democratic Party politicians are currently promoting? Can you show me that it is mainstream Democratic Party thinking to run our modern society on sunlight and wind power alone? I don’t much care who’s a creationist and who believes the lawn decoration in the White House\* wasn’t born in the United States. Guess what? In the overwhelmingly vast majority of cases, it doesn’t matter a damn what the people who keep the water treatment plants going, the roads paved and repaired, the factories humming, the power plants churning out electricity, the trains chugging, etc. think about the origins of the universe or the President of the United States. They can get things done. They can organize a mass demonstration without having it degenerate into squalor and violence. The fleabaggers (heavily supported by the Democrats and the unions) can’t even do that. And I think you’d have to search a long time before you’d find a prominent figure among the Democrats who has condemned the fleabaggers. As for Obama being a traitor: Well, “traitor” is probably too strong a word, but he and his wife obviously have little respect for America and the American people. It’s easy to see why someone would be tempted to call him a traitor. \*Neat! Now you can call me racist and feel all superior! ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/228 "2011-12-01T01:13:20Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > As for Obama being a traitor: Well, “traitor” is probably too strong a word, but he and his wife obviously have little respect for America and the American people. It’s easy to see why someone would be tempted to call him a traitor. See, this is what people mean by “alternate reality”. Is there any real basis to say “he and his wife obviously have little respect for America and the American people”? And I mean real things they really did or said, not fox news talking points. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/229 "2011-12-01T01:15:58Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > See, this is what people mean by “alternate reality”. Is there any real basis to say “he and his wife obviously have little respect for America and the American people”? And I mean real things they really did or said, not fox news talking points. [http://www.bostonherald.com/news/us\_politics/view.bg?articleid=1074519](http://www.bostonherald.com/news/us_politics/view.bg?articleid=1074519) Michelle Obama proclaimed yesterday that for “the first time” in her adult life,” she was proud of America, as she spoke during a rally to support her husband’s presidential bid. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/230 "2011-12-01T01:16:11Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > \*Neat! Now you can call me racist and feel all superior! No, but I fail to see what that comment you made has brought to the debate. It certainly does not make me think that you have formed reasonable ideas. But I guess if you feel that Obama “and his wife” (whatever that is supposed to mean - she’s not elected) " obviously have little respect for America and the American people", then you are pretty much unreachable. And has been pointed out, you’re representative of the Republican Party that Frum is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/231 "2011-12-01T01:19:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://www.bostonherald.com/news/us\_politics/view.bg?articleid=1074519](http://www.bostonherald.com/news/us_politics/view.bg?articleid=1074519) > > Michelle Obama proclaimed yesterday that for “the first time” in her adult life,” she was proud of America, as she spoke during a rally to support her husband’s presidential bid. You’re deadly serious, aren’t you? This has been absolutely fascinating to watch the (3 I think) folks in this thread who are passionate about hating the Democratic Party to the very core of their being. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/232 "2011-12-01T01:21:13Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://www.bostonherald.com/news/us\_politics/view.bg?articleid=1074519](http://www.bostonherald.com/news/us_politics/view.bg?articleid=1074519) > > Michelle Obama proclaimed yesterday that for “the first time” in her adult life,” she was proud of America, as she spoke during a rally to support her husband’s presidential bid. Without any context it’s hard to tell one way or another, but that doesn’t seem to support your point. At any rate, people say a lot of things when campaigning that they don’t meant to be 100% literal. Personally I can’t remember ever being “proud of America” and I had a very typical conservative, white, protestant, middle class upbringing, so I don’t really see the problem if Michelle Obama feels the same way. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/233 "2011-12-01T01:22:24Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > No, but I fail to see what that comment you made has brought to the debate. It certainly does not make me think that you have formed reasonable ideas. > > But I guess if you feel that Obama “and his wife” (whatever that is supposed to mean - she’s not elected) " obviously have little respect for America and the American people", then you are pretty much unreachable. And has been pointed out, you’re representative of the Republican Party that Frum is talking about. ROTFLMAO!!! I have almost as little respect for the Republicans as I do for the Democrats. Both of them are perfectly willing to sell out working stiffs like me for the sake of political power. But at least the Republicans don’t openly hold working class whites in contempt. They’re a little more discrete about it. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/234 "2011-12-01T01:26:31Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > You’re deadly serious, aren’t you? This has been absolutely fascinating to watch the (3 I think) folks in this thread who are passionate about hating the Democratic Party to the very core of their being. Let me get this straight. You really can’t see the rabid, lunatic hatred shown for conservatives and Republicans on this thread? That’s mind boggling. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/235 "2011-12-01T01:26:44Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > ROTFLMAO!!! I have almost as little respect for the Republicans as I do for the Democrats. Both of them are perfectly willing to sell out working stiffs like me for the sake of political power. But at least the Republicans don’t openly hold working class whites in contempt. They’re a little more discrete about it. If you think Democrats “openly hold working class whites in contempt”, then yes, you’re representative of the Republican Party that Frum is talking about, regardless of whether you’re actually a member. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Let me get this straight. You really can’t see the rabid, lunatic hatred shown for conservatives and Republicans on this thread? That’s mind boggling. Who’s shown “rabid, lunatic hatred” besides **Der Trihs**? I agree his schtick is pretty annoying, even though he’s right 90% of the time. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/236 "2011-12-01T01:36:43Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > If you think Democrats “openly hold working class whites in contempt”, then yes, you’re representative of the Republican Party that Frum is talking about, regardless of whether you’re actually a member. > > Who’s shown “rabid, lunatic hatred” besides **Der Trihs**? I agree his schtick is pretty annoying, even though he’s right 90% of the time. Tell ya what. Persuade the lefties on this board to quit using terms like redneck, hillbilly, white trash and trailer trash–in other words, to show lower class whites the same respect they would show to blacks, Hispanics, Asians, gays or anybody else, and not rationalize that these terms of abuse are somehow different from nigger, spick, kike, faggot, gook, etc.–and I’ll take it back. I’ll admit that I was wrong. Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/237 "2011-12-01T01:43:53Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Tell ya what. Persuade the lefties on this board to quit using terms like redneck, hillbilly, white trash and trailer trash–in other words, to show lower class whites the same respect they would show to blacks, Hispanics, Asians, gays or anybody else, and not rationalize that these terms of abuse are somehow different from nigger, spick, kike, faggot, gook, etc.–and I’ll take it back. I’ll admit that I was wrong. > > Good luck with that. Um, how does this address either point? It’s sort of half of one and a bit of the other. Care to make another try? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/238 "2011-12-01T01:54:00Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Without any context it’s hard to tell one way or another, but that doesn’t seem to support your point. At any rate, people say a lot of things when campaigning that they don’t meant to be 100% literal. > > Personally I can’t remember ever being “proud of America” and I had a very typical conservative, white, protestant, middle class upbringing, so I don’t really see the problem if Michelle Obama feels the same way. Of course. If Michelle Obama pissed on you, you’d wonder if it’s raining. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/239 "2011-12-01T01:59:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course. If Michelle Obama pissed on you, you’d wonder if it’s raining. Why would I? I’m not a democrat. I didn’t even vote for Obama. ---
**Author:** ![rogerbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@rogerbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogerbox)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/240 "2011-12-01T02:34:19Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > ROTFLMAO!!! I have almost as little respect for the Republicans as I do for the Democrats. Both of them are perfectly willing to sell out working stiffs like me for the sake of political power. But at least the Republicans don’t openly hold working class whites in contempt. They’re a little more discrete about it. What do you call destroying working class white’s ability to feed their families with tax cuts for the mega-rich, using working class white children to fight wars for profit, and selling out their ability to make good middle class wages if not “open contempt”? It’s no secret they only care about the rich. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=13)