# "When Did The GOP Lose Touch With Reality" by David Frum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320 "2011-11-28T05:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/241 "2011-12-01T02:35:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Of course. If Michelle Obama pissed on you, you’d wonder if it’s raining. **Terr,** not that you’re breaking any rule here, but . . . you often seem to think you are posting on some other board. Not another forum, another board, where the culture of discourse is different. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/242 "2011-12-01T02:54:44Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Um, how does this address either point? It’s sort of half of one and a bit of the other. Care to make another try? No. The point is made. If lefties can’t even refrain from using terms of abuse when talking about lower class whites, why in the world should we assume that they care anything about us? ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/243 "2011-12-01T02:57:35Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > No. The point is made. If lefties can’t even refrain from using terms of abuse when talking about lower class whites, why in the world should we assume that they care anything about us? Is Jeff Foxworthy a leftie? I honestly don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone use those terms in a non-joke sense. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/244 "2011-12-01T03:13:52Z")
> [@rogerbox](#): > > What do you call destroying working class white’s ability to feed their families with tax cuts for the mega-rich, using working class white children to fight wars for profit, and selling out their ability to make good middle class wages if not “open contempt”? It’s no secret they only care about the rich. Well, as[this piece in the New York Times shows](http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/the-future-of-the-obama-coalition/), the Democratic Party has for all practical purposes turned its back on working class whites, depending instead on a coalition of upper class progressives and lower class blacks and Hispanics to keep the Party in power. This means, of course, that they will have to pit lower class blacks and Hispanics against lower class whites. This isn’t surprising to anyone who isn’t blind to the left’s racial politics for the last forty years. And considering that the Democrats are the party of Warren Buffet and George Soros, that Obama got more money from Wall Street than McCain, and that many Democratic politicians such as Barney Frank, Al Gore and Nancy Pelosi are millionaires who haughtily inform the commoners of the sacrifices that must be made, knowing full well that they themselves will never have to share in those sacrifices, I find it awfully hard not to believe that the Democrats are not also a party of privilege and power. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/245 "2011-12-01T03:16:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **Terr,** not that you’re breaking any rule here, but . . . you often seem to think you are posting on some other board. Not another forum, another board, where the culture of discourse is different. Thank you for your comment. Bless your heart. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/246 "2011-12-01T03:16:28Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Is Jeff Foxworthy a leftie? Was Richard Pryor a racist? He threw the N word around an awful lot. > [@kenetic](#): > > I honestly don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone use those terms in a non-joke sense. Then you just haven’t been paying attention, or your memory is being very selective. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/247 "2011-12-01T03:21:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The more you post, the more you make my point. The more you post, the more you make it clear you are unable to actually demonstrate where I’m wrong or even willing to address the matter. Which again demonstrates your error in attempting to lump in people who think Bush did nothing to stop 9-11 with “Truthers”; people _can_ and _do_ disprove what the Truthers claim. As opposed to claiming that “The more you post, the more you make my point” without even bothering to explain how. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/248 "2011-12-01T03:22:50Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > And considering that the Democrats are the party of Warren Buffet and George Soros, that Obama got more money from Wall Street than McCain, and that many Democratic politicians such as Barney Frank, Al Gore and Nancy Pelosi are millionaires who haughtily inform the commoners of the sacrifices that must be made, knowing full well that they themselves will never have to share in those sacrifices, I find it awfully hard not to believe that the Democrats are not also a party of privilege and power. Who said they weren’t? This thread is about whether or not republicans are detached from reality. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/249 "2011-12-01T03:37:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The more you post, the more you make it clear you are unable to actually demonstrate where I’m wrong or even willing to address the matter. Which again demonstrates your error in attempting to lump in people who think Bush did nothing to stop 9-11 with “Truthers”; people _can_ and _do_ disprove what the Truthers claim. As opposed to claiming that “The more you post, the more you make my point” without even bothering to explain how. 🙂 The “how” is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/250 "2011-12-01T03:39:00Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Who said they weren’t? This thread is about whether or not republicans are detached from reality. Not any more than Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/251 "2011-12-01T03:43:52Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Who said they weren’t? This thread is about whether or not republicans are detached from reality. Inasmuch as the Democrats are certainly no less corrupt than the Republicans, that corruption requires them to make bizarre rationalizations to justify or cover up their corruption. Consider ethanol as a fuel source. Al Gore backed this one to the hilt, claiming it would reduce our dependence on foreign oil and give us a cleaner environment. Yet it’s a total boondoggle, the only purpose of which is to put billions of dollars in the pockets of agribiz. Even more fiendishly, the ethanol program causes shortages of grain that lead to serious hunger throughout the world. The Arab Spring was fueled in large part by ever rising food prices in which our asinine ethanol program played a considerable role. Yet we can’t get rid of this program because of the Democrats. As for crazies, anti-nuke kooks won’t let us develop nuclear power, eco-wackies won’t let us mine coal (Obama has specifically stated his intention to make it too expensive for coal companies to mine coal) or drill for oil, and have shut down fertile farm land in California. You can complain about the religious right controlling the Pubs all you want, but the fact is that a technophobic Earth worshiping cult has much the same influence on the Dems. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/252 "2011-12-01T03:44:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not any more than Democrats. But Frum’s essentially not comparing them to the Democrats, but to the Republicans as they were, as recently as, say, the Bush Sr. years. He says the GOP is more detached from reality now than it was then. Would you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/253 "2011-12-01T03:48:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The “how” is obvious. Then you can actually explain it, instead of insisting that it must be so because you say so. You can engage in an actual argument, instead of just completely avoiding _actually addressing_ anything that I say. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/254 "2011-12-01T04:15:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But Frum’s essentially not comparing them to the Democrats, but to the Republicans as they were, as recently as, say, the Bush Sr. years. He says the GOP is more detached from reality now than it was then. Would you agree? No, not really. As I explained, in detail, point by point, in my reply above. To **Budget Player Cadet** I think. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/255 "2011-12-01T04:16:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Then you can actually explain it, instead of insisting that it must be so because you say so. You can engage in an actual argument, instead of just completely avoiding _actually addressing_ anything that I say. With someone else I probably would. But then, someone else would probably not need the explanation. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/256 "2011-12-01T04:55:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not any more than Democrats. Provably untrue. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/257 "2011-12-01T04:57:00Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > With someone else I probably would. But then, someone else would probably not need the explanation. I need the explanation. The PNAC was influential in the Bush White House, Rumsfeld and Cheney, the two biggest proponents of the Iraq War were PNAC member IIRC. And the PNAC DID call for “a new Pearl Harbor” which is EXACTLY what they made out of 9/11. You may say this does not constitute definitive PROOF of Bush deliberately ignoring the terrorist threats, but it’s enough to make a reasonable man suspicious. The truthers got … nothing … plenty of it, but nothing nonetheless. Der Trihs makes cogent points, you just evade. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/258 "2011-12-01T05:04:36Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I need the explanation. The PNAC was influential in the Bush White House, Rumsfeld and Cheney, the two biggest proponents of the Iraq War were PNAC member IIRC. And the PNAC DID call for “a new Pearl Harbor” which is EXACTLY what they made out of 9/11. You may say this does not constitute definitive PROOF of Bush deliberately ignoring the terrorist threats, but it’s enough to make a reasonable man suspicious. The truthers got … nothing … plenty of it, but nothing nonetheless. Der Trihs makes cogent points, you just evade. Cool. More trutherness. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/259 "2011-12-01T05:24:05Z")
never mind ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/260 "2011-12-01T05:26:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because greed, bigotry and malice have been core Republican values for decades. All that’s changed recently is that they’ve added “insane” to the list of reasons to condemn them. > > Unions are near dead - and breaking them is a major reason why incomes have stagnated for decades. We don’t have “excessive welfare”, we have people reduced to homelessness. And removing regulations has ruined the economy and damaged the quality of just about everything. Unions aren’t dead-in the public sector especially they have a stranglehold. Plus the left has complained about the power of the police unions for example. And I’m not opposed to all regulations and welfare-for example I support tightening banking regulations. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > Really? Isn’t it? _Words mean things,_ as Rusty Limbaugh used to say. > > Unions are a way of democratizing business decisions. You want less power to the people? No I’m not opposed to unions. For many industries they are quite necessary, however in the public sector they are a group opposed to reforming and austerity measures. > [@](#): > > Welfare means well-being. We had excessive well-being, you say? Are we better off with less now? No I mean governmental welfare programs: I want private charity to play a larger role and government welfare to be more efficient. > [@](#): > > Regulations are laws. Who decided which laws were excessive? I’ve seen Republicans fall over themselves to outlaw burning a US flag (before you were born). Doesn’t that seem excessive? But some environmental law, like air quality, that’s excessive? Who decided again? I don’t support a law banning flag burning. And obviously economists should help determine where regulations are necessary and where they should be reduced. > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Because, in the face of the biggest world economic disaster in the last seventy years, the Republican Party not only has no serious answer to the meltdown, they also don’t even seem to care about it. More often than not, it seems like this is a party for which THE ONLY issue is the subjugation of homosexuals. A single-issue party devoted to oppressing a minority group is an evil thing, without meaningful precedent in the post-Civil War American political mainstream. Even in the worst days of George Wallace, the national Democratic Party was not single-mindedly devoted to the notion that the subjugation of blacks could and should continue forever. The Nazi comparison is more than apt–the range of problems which Republicans blame on this minority group, the obvious view of them as subhuman, and the fact that Republican debate audiences literally cheer the concept of death, brings to mind nothing more than Nazi attitudes towards Jews and accompanying nihilistic death-worship. If this is not evil, what is? What the flying fuck. No seriously, unless you are shitting me that’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve read in a while. > [@Voyager](#): > > Maybe because they cheer people being executed? So we shouldn’t be glad justice is being done. > [@](#): > > Maybe because they boo a brave member of our military who happens to be gay? Maybe because they are fine with people not as well off as they are dying in the streets? Maybe because when Rick Perry said, very reasonably, that the children of illegal immigrants, who didn’t have any say in being here, should be able to get an education, they had a fit. Those are some Republicans not all. > [@](#): > > horrible regulations have made the air and water a lot cleaner for you than they were when I was a kid. The destruction of unions by the right is a big reason why wages have stagnated. I’m going to laugh like hell when you get out of college and find there is nothing for you thanks to the stupid policies you support today See above. > [@](#): > > Bush had his fun and North Korea has its nukes. Sometimes it is better to not call someone evil (even if they are) if you want to negotiate. Calling someone a poopyhead is more appropriate for the playground than the White House. [/QUOTE] I find it interesting you have no problem calling Republicans evil while trying to be euphemistic and politically correct with totalitarian dictators. > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The state-sponsored execution of black people for the amusement of white Christians. > > The existence of homosexuals. > > Because Republicans hate Mexicans. > > Republicans want people to die on the streets, in prisons, on battlefields in foreign countries, pretty much everywhere. For a party that claims to be “pro-life” they sure do resemble, to all external appearances, a death cult. Your dogmatic, unsubstantiated assertions are laughable and hilarious. Give me cites. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=14)