# "When Did The GOP Lose Touch With Reality" by David Frum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320 "2011-11-28T05:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/281 "2011-12-01T13:23:37Z")
> [@C3](#): > > This theory ignores the fact that Frum’s article was one part in a two-part series. The other article was a critique of the Democratic party by a liberal, Jonathan Chait (equally interesting, but Chait doesn’t write as well as Frum). Jonathan Chait said liberal Democrats condemn Democratic presidents for not being liberal enough. Since perhaps the late 1960s the United States has been a center right country with self identified conservatives outnumbering self identifying liberals by nearly two to one. My criticism of Barack Obama is that he underestimated the unemployment problem. Soon after his inauguration, when his approval rating was close to seventy percent he should have raised taxes on the rich and initiated public work programs. My criticism of Bill Clinton is that his undisciplined libido made him vulnerable to Republicans. I have no criticism of Jimmy Carter. I do not see how he could have handled the Iranian Revolution better. I am not sure how Lyndon Johnson could have handled the War in Vietnam better. If he had pulled out the Communists would have won earlier, and he would have been blamed. (This does not mean that I supported the War in Vietnam; I did not, but most Americans did through out the 1960s.) John Kennedy was a Cold Warrior, but that is where the country was at the time. Harry Truman’s Truman Policy committed the United States to the defense of any right wing dictator against any resistance movement that could be labeled “Communist.” As far as I am concerned Franklin Roosevelt was the next best thing to Jesus Christ’s younger brother. Please forgive what may be seen as a hijack to this thread. :o ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/282 "2011-12-01T13:27:36Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The linked article was published in \* New York Magazine\*, which has no affiliation whatsoever with the _New York Times_. Ironically, **you have provided a great example of that Republican create-your-own-reality thinking** that the article you didn’t read talks about–there are no ready-made stereotypes about \* New York Magazine\* so just pretend it was published in NYT and attack that! **Anyone who points out that it wasn’t published in NYT at all is probably some sort of gay Mexican who should be executed.** :D:D:D Or perhaps an atheist Muslim born in Kenya. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/283 "2011-12-01T13:28:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh, really. In what way? It fits all the evidence, it doesn’t require violations of physical laws or implausibly large & effective conspiracies, it fits the known goals & characters of the accused, it fits exactly with how 9-11 and its aftermath played out; it wouldn’t even have been hard to pull off. In what way is that similar to “other conspiracy theories”? In what way is it even implausible? … and more proof of how lefties are removed from reality. Keep digging. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/284 "2011-12-01T13:29:37Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > So your answer to the fact that the Republican Party is on a crusade against homosexuals is to deny it? How are you going to explain yourself to your grandchildren in fifty years? Someone’s going to ask you what you were doing while the conservatives were giving the green light to killing gay teenagers and standing in the door to the marriage clerk, and your answer will be…denial that it happened? I guess that at least shows SOME shame about what your group is doing. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/285 "2011-12-01T13:31:32Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > So your answer to the fact that the Republican Party is on a crusade against homosexuals is to deny it? > > How are you going to explain yourself to your grandchildren in fifty years? Someone’s going to ask you what you were doing while the conservatives were giving the green light to killing gay teenagers and standing in the door to the marriage clerk, and your answer will be…denial that it happened? I guess that at least shows SOME shame about what your group is doing. Republican party also throws grandmas off cliffs. And eats babies. Raw. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/286 "2011-12-01T13:34:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What am I supposed to defend - that the GOP is not a death cult rejoicing in the death of the poor? > Regards, > Shodan The teabaggers are opposed to policies that might reduce unemployment. They are also opposed to government assistance to the unemployed. If the GOP is successful in ending unemployment compensation people will start dying. I am surprised it has not started already. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/287 "2011-12-01T13:34:10Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > As far as I am concerned Franklin Roosevelt was the next best thing to Jesus Christ’s younger brother. Better than [that,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Xiuquan) I should hope! ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/288 "2011-12-01T13:41:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That would be like going up to the wino shitting on the park bench and offering to wipe his behind. It’s not that kind of thread. > > Regards, > Shodan This is one of the most fascinating thread I have read during four years of hanging out on internet forums. I have read every comment, including yours. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/289 "2011-12-01T13:42:48Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Jonathan Chait said liberal Democrats condemn Democratic presidents for not being liberal enough. Since perhaps the late 1960s the United States has been a center right country with self identified conservatives outnumbering self identifying liberals by nearly two to one. [Until you start probing what they mean by it.](http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/03/political_ideology.html) ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/290 "2011-12-01T13:45:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Republican party also throws grandmas off cliffs. And eats babies. Raw. The denial that the Republican party is anti-gay is of course another great example of being out of touch with reality, but at least the need to deny is the sign of some kind of shame. I’ll teach you to be a moral human being yet. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/291 "2011-12-01T13:46:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … and more proof of how lefties are removed from reality. Keep digging. :rolleyes: And _once again_, you completely avoid actually addressing anything I said. You keep making these smirking statements about how “removed from reality” I am, without providing any actual arguments against anything I say. > [@Terr](#): > > Republican party also throws grandmas off cliffs. And eats babies. Raw. No, but they are perfectly willing to kill “grandmas and babies”; and anyone else who isn’t a rich white Christian for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/292 "2011-12-01T13:50:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: And _once again_, you completely avoid actually addressing anything I said. You keep making these smirking statements about how “removed from reality” I am, without providing any actual arguments against anything I say. I don’t argue with truthers. I just point and laugh. > [@](#): > > No, but they are perfectly willing to kill “grandmas and babies”; and anyone else who isn’t a rich white Christian for that matter. LOL. Another hate minute brought to you by Der Trihs. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/293 "2011-12-01T14:00:11Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Raising taxes during a recession is a bad idea. During the Roosevelt administration, as the [top tax rate](http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=213) grew, the [unemployment rate](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html) declined. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/294 "2011-12-01T14:02:15Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t argue with truthers. I just point and laugh. So… you can’t tell the difference between an explanation which flies right in the face of reason and the evidence we have (something like the claim that it was a controlled demolition) and one that matches the facts to a T, but has not been conclusively proven (Bush was too lazy/incompetent/evil to prevent the 9/11 attacks)? Here’s a hint for ya: The republicans do the former waaay more than the latter. @Trihs: Stop posting. In a discussion where the dems are trying to convince the repubs that they aren’t as crazy as the other guys, a lone radical spouting off his radical opinion _does not help_. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/295 "2011-12-01T14:05:19Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Conservatives always lose the war. First they lost the slave thing, then Jim Crow, then forced prayer in school, women’s rights, abortion, gays in the military, etc. Progress marches on and conservatives just try and hold it off as long as they can. It is inevitable that we will have same sex marriage and universal health care in the US, and conservatives will just delay it. Nature abhors a vacuum, and at some point no ones’ skull is thick enough to maintain the empty space within. I agreed with this until I observed the political success of Ronald Reagan and Margret Thatcher. I have never seen such public doubt about the success of Franklin Roosevelt in ending the Great Depression. All of the major economic reforms of the twentieth century seem to be on the table right now. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/296 "2011-12-01T14:13:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t argue with truthers. I just point and laugh. In other words you are incapable of contesting what I’m saying, so you use a warped definition of “truther” so you can sit back and smirk about it. And apparently you miss the whole point of Great Debates. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > @Trihs: Stop posting. In a discussion where the dems are trying to convince the repubs that they aren’t as crazy as the other guys, a lone radical spouting off his radical opinion _does not help_. I’m not a Democrat, so my opinion has nothing to do with what the Democrats are or are not like. Nor has anything I’ve said in this thread been all that “radical”. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/297 "2011-12-01T14:24:50Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Bush was too lazy/incompetent/evil to prevent the 9/11 attacks “On purpose”. That’s the claim. Look at the LIHOPers posting. > [@](#): > > @Trihs: Stop posting. In a discussion where the dems are trying to convince the repubs that they aren’t as crazy as the other guys, a lone radical spouting off his radical opinion _does not help_. Hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/298 "2011-12-01T14:36:06Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Also, a far higher % of Republicans believe Obama is not a “natural-born citizen” than a % of Democrats has ever believed Bush was in any way behind 9/11. The opinion some Democrats have about 9/11 is that Bush was negligent in some (or, for more radical types, many) respects and should have been held more accountable for it having happened on his watch than he was. This is a debatable point. Obama supposedly not being American has long since been resolved by all rational people. Fifteen percent are [truthers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_opinion_polls). Twenty-seven percent are [birthers](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/05/birther-poll-shows-that-m_n_670435.html). ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/299 "2011-12-01T14:43:10Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Absolutely. And more so, birtherism has no basis in reality, while Bush’s negligence WRT 9/11 is plausible. There is a great deal of difference between thinking that Bush was negligent, about 9/11, and thinking that he conspired to make it happen. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/300 "2011-12-01T14:50:46Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > There is a great deal of difference between thinking that Bush was negligent, about 9/11, and thinking that he conspired to make it happen. Not necessarily, since he could have done the latter just by being negligent on purpose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=16)