# "When Did The GOP Lose Touch With Reality" by David Frum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2011, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320 "2011-11-28T05:29:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/301 "2011-12-01T14:59:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I can show you a Democrat who was elected to US Congress that signed the “9/11 Truth” manifesto. Next time, please document your own assertions, but it turns out you are right. * * * Cynthia Ann McKinney (born March 17, 1955) is a former US Congresswoman and a member of the Green Party since 2007. As a member of the Democratic Party, she served six terms as a member of the United States House of Representatives… McKinney gained national attention for remarks she made following the 2001 US attacks, charging that the United States had advance knowledge of the attacks and that US President George W. Bush may have been aware of the incipient attack and allowed them to happen. > **[Cynthia McKinney](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynthia_McKinney)** > > Cynthia Ann McKinney (born March 17, 1955) is a former American politician. As a member of the Democratic Party, she served six terms in the United States House of Representatives. She was the first African American woman elected to represent Georgia in the House. She left the Democratic Party and ran in 2008 as the presidential nominee of the Green Party. She ran for vice president in 2020 after the Green Party of Alaska formally nominated her and draft-nominated Jesse Ventura for presiden McK... ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/302 "2011-12-01T15:03:37Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Let me get this straight. You really can’t see the rabid, lunatic hatred shown for conservatives and Republicans on this thread? That’s mind boggling. The truth about the Republican Party may justify hate for it. This does not mean that those who tell the truth about the Republican Party hate it. They are just being honest. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/303 "2011-12-01T15:14:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not necessarily, since he could have done the latter just by being negligent on purpose. Republicans like to point out that President Clinton had opportunities to kill Osama bin Laden, but did not take them. This does not mean that Clinton wanted bin Laden to hit the United States. Speaking only for myself, I do not think Bush was evil enough to plan 9/11, or allow it to happen if he knew it was going to happen. I do not think he was competent enough to have detected it and prevented it. He received a few warnings, but he was probably distracted. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/304 "2011-12-01T15:26:31Z")
Since the end of the Roosevelt administration there have been Republicans who wanted to repeal the reforms of the New Deal. This is what President Eisenhower thought about them: Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas.5 Their number is negligible and they are stupid. [http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/presidential-papers/first-term/documents/1147.cfm](http://www.eisenhowermemorial.org/presidential-papers/first-term/documents/1147.cfm) This attitude dominated the Republican Party until the campaign of 1980. Since then the Republican Party has been dominated by those who wanted to restore laissez faire capitalism, and those who adhered to and continue to adhere to bizarre economic theories like Supply Side Economics. What we need in the United States is a conservative party in the Eisenhower mold. We need a party that respects and studies the past, but which does not want to restore it. We need a party that is skeptical of untried economic experiments, and that recognizes when previous experiments have failed. In short, we need a party that conserves, rather than destroys. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/305 "2011-12-01T15:30:55Z")
I have spend over an hour reading every comment in this thread. I am impressed, and almost awed by the quality of the comments, and by the civility with which they have been presented. I hope my comments are considered to be up to the prevailing standard. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/306 "2011-12-01T15:56:51Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Fifteen percent are [truthers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_opinion_polls). Twenty-seven percent are [birthers](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/05/birther-poll-shows-that-m_n_670435.html). Thanks for putting up those cites. I meant to do that myself, but I’ve been a bit busy the past couple days since I last posted in this thread. I appreciate it! ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/307 "2011-12-01T23:48:09Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Thanks for putting up those cites. I meant to do that myself, but I’ve been a bit busy the past couple days since I last posted in this thread. I appreciate it! The most bizarre theory I can think of is that George W. Bush planned 9/11. I voted against him twice, and think he did a lot of harm to the United States. Nevertheless, I do not think he is evil enough to do something like that. Also, there are plenty of journalists who grew up reading about how Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein became rich and famous by destroying the Nixon administration after Nixon had been reelected in a landslide. These would have loved to expose a Bushite conspiracy to blow up the World Trade Center. You can bet leading newspapers would have given them the assignment if there was any reason to suspect a conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/308 "2011-12-02T00:08:52Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No I’m not opposed to unions. For many industries they are quite necessary, however in the public sector they are a group opposed to reforming and austerity measures. Addressing high unemployment by laying off government workers is asinine - and “austerity measures” means just that. Especially when these austerity measures are combined with tax cuts. > [@](#): > > So we shouldn’t be glad justice is being done. Read about Texas justice some time. At least some of those men were clearly innocent. > [@](#): > > Those are some Republicans not all. Not that is a content free response. No one said all. We’re not Abraham pleading for Sodom here. > [@](#): > > I find it interesting you have no problem calling Republicans evil while trying to be euphemistic and politically correct with totalitarian dictators. Again you miss the point. I was not objecting to you or I or the man in the moon calling these people evil. I was objecting the the President of the United States being so diplomatically stupid that he called them evil in a big speech. Try to think about it. We say “You are evil we will destroy you” and then say “why are you going for nuclear weapons?” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/309 "2011-12-02T00:15:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Again you miss the point. I was not objecting to you or I or the man in the moon calling these people evil. I was objecting the the President of the United States being so diplomatically stupid that he called them evil in a big speech. Try to think about it. > We say “You are evil we will destroy you” and then say “why are you going for nuclear weapons?” And NONE of the people or countries he put into the “Axis of Evil” (which, ironically, was a phrase that David Frum coined) had anything to do with 9/11. Iran actually offered us military aid against the Taliban, an organization that the Iranian government vehemently opposed (along with Al Qaeda). ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/310 "2011-12-02T00:20:49Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > . . . What we need in the United States is a conservative party in the Eisenhower mold. We need a party that respects and studies the past, but which does not want to restore it. We need a party that is skeptical of untried economic experiments, and that recognizes when previous experiments have failed. In short, we need a party that conserves, rather than destroys. Total agreement. We need a strong opposition party (whichever party it happens to be!) to keep the ruling party from corruption. People constantly miss this point with regard to defense attorneys. Defense lawyers aren’t there to “get their client off,” but to make sure the prosecution actually does a proper job in presenting their case. Likewise, the opposition party in the U.S. isn’t there to block legislation, or prevent judges from being approved, or impeach the president for partisan reasons, but to keep the process open and honest. We need political parties that believe in what is best for the country, not what is best for themselves. I believe the Democratic party is more open and honest, and somewhat less corrupt than the Republican party, today, largely because the Democratic Party is, itself, so much a coalition of interests that it serves (roughly speaking) as its own “opposition.” A Democratic member of Congress is (somewhat) more likely to blow the whistle on a corrupt fellow-Democrat than a Republican member is to expose wrongdoing by a fellow Republican. Neither party is spotless; no political party ever can be. But the Republicans have lost sight of the small-d democratic purpose for their own existence. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/311 "2011-12-02T00:47:56Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The most bizarre theory I can think of is that George W. Bush planned 9/11. I voted against him twice, and think he did a lot of harm to the United States. Nevertheless, I do not think he is evil enough to do something like that. Go ask the dead of Iraq how non-evil Bush is, how much respect for human life he has. Not evil enough? Even if you postulate the most extreme conspiracy scenario, that he had the Towers wired with explosives and personally pushed a big red button to blow them up, that would _still_ be an order of magnitude or two less evil than Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/312 "2011-12-02T03:11:25Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > You misspelled IOWA.Well. I’m one of those Earth-worshipers, so what can I say? Oh, yeah. I’m not a technophobe. Rejecting an inferior technology for a superior one is not technophobia. So you support nuclear energy then I hope. > [@](#): > > Pick one.No, that’s not necessarily the case. Economics is a soft science. Biologists and ecologists should hold the trump card, not accountants. That would imply that we should institute survival of the fittest policies. But more seriously not all environmental concerns are equal. And what we do on global warming isn’t going to matter once China, India, and Brazil unleash their potential. > [@](#): > > Yeah, that’s just nonsense. The gutting of government revenues is far more important to the GOP than tormenting homosexuals. We should have called that post out earlier. Also, go wash out your mouth with soap.Yeah, that’s weird.I can understand one of those: “The state-sponsored execution of black people for the amusement of white Christians.” Read **The New Jim Crow** and you’ll see why some people react that way. Interesting book… I shall look into it > [@foolsguinea](#): > > This is a good all-purpose answer, and applies to both parties. The important question is, what do the leadership do? Look at party leaders and whips, they’re the ones who get laws passed. And the mainstream GOP isn’t doing anything rally stupid if it wants to get elected. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/313 "2011-12-02T04:45:52Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And the mainstream GOP isn’t doing anything rally stupid if it wants to get elected. You’ve GOT to be kidding. The GOP mainstream platform is MADE of stupid, that’s why I and many others oppose them. Deregulating financial institutions, stupid. Trickle down economics, stupid. Starting wars on false pretenses, stupid. Denying global warming: stupid. Getting rid of Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, stupid. Shutting down agencies to keep air and water clean, stupid. If they attempt to enact the policies they are advocating, it’s gonna be really, really stupid. I’ve left out a lot of the evil stuff, the mainstream stupid is reason enough to not vote for the GOP. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/314 "2011-12-02T22:44:11Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Would the wealthy be content to sit back and let that happen? Wouldn’t be much of a country if it got to that point. Apprently, it depends on how high we are going to raise their taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/315 "2011-12-03T00:07:05Z")
Hmmm…Could half of the wealthy be persuaded to shoot the other half if their taxes aren’t raised? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/316 "2011-12-03T14:59:43Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Republicans like to point out that President Clinton had opportunities to kill Osama bin Laden, but did not take them. Yes, Clinton did take the probabilities of success and of the death of innocents into account. He did have other opportunities that he _did_ take - but those self-same Republicans then claimed he was just attempting to distract people from the blowjob story. Their most recent budget “proposal”: [Denying millionaires access to food stamps](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/01/1041529/-Republicans-want-to-crack-down-on-millionaire-food-stamp-recipients). They can’t even sleep under the same bridges as the poor now. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2011, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/317 "2011-12-03T15:40:17Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Hmmm…Could half of the wealthy be persuaded to shoot the other half if their taxes aren’t raised? Well, not with their own hands, of course, but, essentially, yes. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/318 "2011-12-04T14:16:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Go ask the dead of Iraq how non-evil Bush is, how much respect for human life he has. Not evil enough? Even if you postulate the most extreme conspiracy scenario, that he had the Towers wired with explosives and personally pushed a big red button to blow them up, that would _still_ be an order of magnitude or two less evil than Iraq. That’s really, really dumb, and you know it. If he set up 9/11, it would still cover all the people dying in Iraq, plus the people dying in 9/11 itself, plus the added secrecy he’s apparently had the power to invoke. And that’s not even getting into the fact that it’s pretty clear that Bush was convinced he was doing the right thing in Iraq, and there’s no such argument for 9/11. And my claim that Bush was mostly being led around by other people, and thus is just as evil as a child being made to do something evil. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/319 "2011-12-04T15:20:38Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > So you support nuclear energy then I hope. It’s all about containing the bad shit. Fossil fuels, when burned, emmit CO and CO2. Over the long run, it’s wreaking havoc on the environment and atmosphere and cannot be easily contained and segregated (e.g. 300 million cars spewing CO into the air). Nuclear power creates waste that’s imminently far more dangerous than coal, and with the added bonus of possible core meltdowns. However, this waste is far more easily contained and segregated, provided we find a nice spot on this planet to let the stuff chill for 20,000 years or so. Also – clean emmisions. So, Nuclear power is a nice _stepping stone_ to ween ourselves off of coal, and on toward renewable, clean sources (like solar, wind and hydroelectric) which will become far, far more cost effective and applicable as we develop and refine the technologies over the next couple decades. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > That would imply that we should institute survival of the fittest policies. > > But more seriously not all environmental concerns are equal. And what we do on global warming isn’t going to matter once China, India, and Brazil unleash their potential. As the globe becomes ever more reliant on high technology, it becomes all the more crucial to let the experts forge and reforge guidelines, regulations and laws governing these tecnologies. Other developing countries will have to follow suit. > [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And the mainstream GOP isn’t doing anything rally stupid if it wants to get elected. That’s the really sad thing; the mentality that a political party should be elected out of pure competition alone, as if there should be no rules on foul play and they just keep hitting and hitting below the belt to keep their title. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320/320 "2011-12-04T15:53:32Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And that’s not even getting into the fact that it’s pretty clear that Bush was convinced he was doing the right thing in Iraq, and there’s no such argument for 9/11. Say what? It would have the exact same “justification” as Iraq; that all those people are being killed for a greater purpose. Nor do I see any evidence that Bush considers mass murder wrong in the first place, as long as he’s the one doing the murdering. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-did-the-gop-lose-touch-with-reality-by-david-frum/604320.md?page=17)